Been there, done that

gnarayan said:
Another alternative is simply avoiding the threads entirely.
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Dear Gautham,

Sure, but what intrigues me is that most people genuinely want to be helpful. I'm just looking at how much help we can realistically give one another in this particular realm, and coming up with the answer, "Distressingly little."

Cheers,

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
I am increasingly uncertain of the value of my advice, from the viewpoint of nearly 59, to someone who is 39 or 29 or worse still 19. Yes, I've owned more Leicas than I can remember; but what I need, want or can afford today may differ widely from what is best for someone younger.

Yes, some people think exactly alike. Today I finished the first draft of a novel, co-written with a friend who is exactly 40 years younger (1950/1990). Either we think identically, or telepathy is involved. But even then, there's a lot we don't have in common.

I own my own house, and I got my driving license and lost my virginity some decades ago. Hell, I got my LL.B. well over 30 years ago. I've been married twice (the second time worked). I can afford the occasional new Leica or lens.

She's been with her boyfriend 9 weeks, can't drive a car (not legally, though she's pretty good with a Land Rover in a field), and she is going to university in September. We're as close as two people can be, born exactly 40 years apart, and precisely because are so close, I am all the more aware of how distant I am from other young people (not necessarily that young).

So when I say, "Buy an MP if you can afford it," how much is that worth to younger and/or poorer people?

EDIT: Post 52 in this thread will (I hope) clarify the original point, which is to question the value of any 'what should I buy' advice.

Tashi delek,

R.
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It always cracks me up how you manage to include something about your 19 yo "friend", Land Rover, etc in your posts/threads lately. Wonder why's that?

As far as your advice " Buy an MP if you can afford it " - I think real question is - will that MP make them any better photographer? If you said that to me - I'd be asking "what can MP do that other cameras can't?" I have never had an MP. Not because I can't afferd one, but because i see no need in one - so many other cameras work just fine for me.
I think it's like " Buy a Range Rover if you can afford it" advice - Toyota Land Cruiser can do same if not more.....

I suppose I'm more practical when it comes to these things.
 
dazedgonebye said:
Chris,

I don't know the choices you've made or your circumstances (except bits I've picked up from reading your posts), but it seems that you are pursuing a creative path. "Starving artist" is a well worn term for a reason. If you're going hungry as a student, perhaps a better paying use of your time is in order.
I didn't pursue my dreams. Instead, I joined the service then got jobs that fed me and my family. I'm not always happy with those choices...but I made them and I live with them.


edited to add:
And thus I demonstrate why I usually have more sense than to give advice. It is never taken as intended and seldom affects the recipient in any positive way at all.
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I Think this is pretty much right on - I fully agree with above post - it's all up to you - you make a choice and you live with it. I could have chosen to be "creative" and have several jobs making $7/hour, yet I chose to go get a job that makes my life fairly comfortable, at least at the moment. And no - I dont come from money, Actually I make more money than anyone in my family ever did. Did I have to give up some things - sure. It took time and hard work, but it paid off. And based on my own experience, I can say that I dont buy any excuses, such as - "well thats just how things are around here" - it's all up to you. Keep in mind there are many self-made millionaires - many college drop-outs that didnt have much in the beginning.
 
Krosya said:
I suppose I'm more practical when it comes to these things.
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Not on my reading. Read posts 52 and 60 before indulging in any more cheap shots.

Elsewhere I've said, "Take what you want, and pay for it, saieth the Lord." You have. I have. We've chosen different things and paid different prices. I'm happy with my choices, and I'm happy that you're happy with yours.

Unike your attitude to me, I don't feel the need to attack your choices with innuendo. Thnk about it. 'Friend' in inverted commas is pretty offensive. Yes, she is a friend. A wonderful friend. She's also a bloody good writer, and both Frances and I regard her as the daughter we never had. I hope you have friends as clever and as close.

Oh, yeah. Are you the one who thinks that shiny new cars are essential to happiness? I apologize if you're not, but someone was saying something similar recently, and it ties in with your Land Rover comment. Again, it's priorities. You have yours; I have mine; the person who thinks shiny new cars are important has his (assuming it wasn't you). Let us celebrate the choice that is open to us all, rather than attacking those who hear a different drum.

Cheers,

R.
 
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Roger Hicks said:
Oh, yeah. Are you the one who thinks that shiny new cars are essential to happiness? I apologize if you're not, but someone was saying something similar recently, and it ties in with your Land Rover comment. Again, it's priorities. You have yours; I have mine; the person who thinks shiny new cars are important has his (assuming it wasn't you).
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Dear R.

I think that was me who you are thinking about. If so, you are incorrect in your assumptions... or should I say, your 'innuendo'?

I also like camera equipment that is not beat up; but it doesn't have to be new!

😛
😀
🙂
 
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Dear Ed,

My apologies, As I said in the other post, I wasn't sure who it was, but the point stands. We all have our priorities, and different priorities suit different people.

Then there is the question of common politeness -- which, mercifully, is common on RFF. I found Krosya's use of inverted commas around 'friend' distinctly offensive, and his comment on the Land Rover merely peculiar. Then again, his new thread, about how we should all be nastier to one another, is even more peculiar.

Tashi delek,

R.
 
Sometimes people include comments about themselves that are there as flags... pointers... passive comments as to what makes the person tick, merely because those things are important to the person and they like them. They are not necessarily pretentious statements. We should take them as we find them, much like people.

I would never own an old Land Rover... bec I could never fix it if it decided not to play 😀

I would imagine the recent references to the 19 year old friend and the LR are because he has found a great deal of happiness in conversation with the former and ownership of the latter. My goodness. The most incredible experiences of my life have all revolved around people. I do hope that when I am fifty something, younger females are not off limits for interesting conversation. In fact the mere suggestion would vex young women immensely and rightly so. Its the same reason why so many adults are afraid of having physical contact with anyone else's children. Such a shame; the children miss out on so much.
 
notturtle said:
. . . I would imagine the recent references to the 19 year old friend and the LR are because he has found a great deal of happiness in conversation with the former and ownership of the latter. My goodness. The most incredible experiences of my life have all revolved around people. I do hope that when I am fifty something, younger females are not off limits for interesting conversation. . . .
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Exactly. As I said elsewhere, we've just finished a 65,000 word novel together and are currently revising it (changing the colour of someone's hair so its the same in chapters 1 and 17, clarifying whether someone is on the 'phone to China in French or English, that sort of thing). We take it in turns writing, and revise each other's first drafts, and sometimes even we can't remember who wrote which bit.

Today I took her down to Poitiers to catch the train home to spend a long week-end with her boyfriend, and later today Frances and I are going to have barbecued veal chops (her favourite) to celebrate the fact that we met 28 years ago today, May 14 (which is also my brother's birthday) in Palos Verdes in Southern California.

There's enough sh*t in everyone's life -- Monday and Tuesday we're having the roof done, wood treatment on the inside, slates and flashing sorted on the outside -- and it's nice to dwell on the things that make us happy, and not just photography. Good friends, good food, and of course wonderful partners; June is our 27th wedding anniversary.

Yes, it can be tedious to read about the private lives of people you don't care about, but the remedy is simple: don't read about them. And if by mistake you do, don't waste time answering. One of the really nice things about RFF is that some people do turn into friends. I've met a few, and talked to a few more on the 'phone, and I hope there'll be more.

Now I'm going to start yet another thread, about what other creative things (than photography) RFF members do.

Tashi delek,

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
... but the point stands. We all have our priorities, and different priorities suit different people.
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If that is your point, which I cannot disagree with, then please confine your comments to that point.

You, too, inflect your "points" with innuendo that some might take as offensive. Re: shiny autos... it isn't necessarily an issue of "happiness" but "effectiveness". If I rode up to a meeting with my customer in a beat-up car (even if it were a "classic" Land Rover) I would get no respect and probably no job. That's just the way it is... it's like the difference between wearing a neck tie or a soiled tee-shirt. I drive a Mercedes and wear nick-ties out of business necessity. It is to meet the needs of my business environment and customer expectations. It is, indeed, a matter of priorities but not priorities based on happiness.

The Aston Martin... well, amigo, that IS a matter of happiness. So maybe you are half right. 🙂
 
Gumby said:
If that is your point, which I cannot disagree with, then please confine your comments to that point.

You, too, inflect your "points" with innuendo that some might take as offensive. Re: shiny autos... it isn't necessarily an issue of "happiness" but "effectiveness". If I rode up to a meeting with my customer in a beat-up car (even if it were a "classic" Land Rover) I would get no respect and probably no job. That's just the way it is... it's like the difference between wearing a neck tie or a soiled tee-shirt. I drive a Mercedes and wear nick-ties out of business necessity. It is to meet the needs of my business environment and customer expectations. It is, indeed, a matter of priorities but not priorities based on happiness.

The Aston Martin... well, amigo, that IS a matter of happiness. So maybe you are half right. 🙂
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Dear Ed,

I apologize for unintentional innuendo. You are quite right: there are environments where a Mercedes and necktie are expected, which is absolutely a part of 'take what you want, and pay for it, saieth the Lord'.

But I'd still say that such priorities are based on happiness. You're happier with a necktie and a shiny car and your business environment. I'm happier with T-shirts (they can be washed, you know), 501s and being a writer/photographer. Sure, I have to put up with some sh*t from editors, and even more from publishers, but I hated being a wage-slave and I'm not cut out to be an entrepreneur or employer.

Tashi delek,

R.
 
Buy an MP? That's actually the opposite advice I would expect from someone who's been around the block a few times, so to speak. I would expect to hear "buy a cheap camera, good photos are made by the person, not the camera."

What does an MP + lens cost, $8000? I can think of some things that would enrich a young person more than an MP, at the same cost.

Like, maybe travel around the world a few times, or take some college/university courses, or volunteer in a poor country and use the money to pay the rent. I dunno, $8000 is a lot of money to spend on an object when you're still getting started.
 
antiquark said:
Buy an MP? That's actually the opposite advice I would expect from someone who's been around the block a few times, so to speak. I would expect to hear "buy a cheap camera, good photos are made by the person, not the camera."

What does an MP + lens cost, $8000? I can think of some things that would enrich a young person more than an MP, at the same cost.

Like, maybe travel around the world a few times, or take some college/university courses, or volunteer in a poor country and use the money to pay the rent. I dunno, $8000 is a lot of money to spend on an object when you're still getting started.
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Totally agree. Imagine 2 young photographers. One spends $300 on good used equipment (say just for example: Nikon F3, 28mm, 50mm) and $7700 travelling the world collecting experiences. And a second photographer with a brand-spanking new MP and not a clue about the world. Who is (way) ahead?

Insert Bessa R and CV35f2.5 if you're against SLR's. I just think the F3 is better value.
 
antiquark said:
Buy an MP? That's actually the opposite advice I would expect from someone who's been around the block a few times, so to speak. I would expect to hear "buy a cheap camera, good photos are made by the person, not the camera."

What does an MP + lens cost, $8000? I can think of some things that would enrich a young person more than an MP, at the same cost.

Like, maybe travel around the world a few times, or take some college/university courses, or volunteer in a poor country and use the money to pay the rent. I dunno, $8000 is a lot of money to spend on an object when you're still getting started.
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That was a good part of what I was saying, only you have expressed it better. The advice that's suitable for a 59-year-old may be different from the advice you'd give a 39-year-old; is almost certainly different from what you'd give a 29-year-old; and should be completely different from what you'd give a 19-year-old.

But (of course) I was 19 in 1969, and 2009 is a very different world from 1969, so again, the advice I'd give a 19-year-old me in 1969 (if I had a time machine) is different from the advice I'd give a 19-year-old today. That's the other large part of what prompted the original post.

But in all cases I'd say, buy the best camera you can afford ('best' being defined as 'the one you're happiest with'), bearing in mind (as you so rightly say) that 'afford' also includes 'allowing for other ways you might better allocate a limited amount of money'.

One thing I wouldn't waste money on, though, is a photography course. The basic techniques are easy; there are plenty of books and websites for practical advice; and you'll learn best by doing.

Tashi delek,

R.
 
I could afford an MP if I really wanted it. I have a job, no bills to pay except for school (which is cheap at a community college), and maybe car insurance (after I buy my car that is,) so the spending power of the youth is actually pretty high.
 
mknawabi said:
I could afford an MP if I really wanted it. I have a job, no bills to pay except for school (which is cheap at a community college), and maybe car insurance (after I buy my car that is,) so the spending power of the youth is actually pretty high.
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Thanks for the superb illustration of the difference between Bermuda/the UK in 1969 and California today -- and for an illustration of priorities...

Cheers,

R.
 
Chris Crawford: hang in there, go with what you want to do. We all, or most of us, have had hard times, I sure have (at your age I wasn't broke, I was negative equity). When I quit work 7 years ago, I couldn't believe where I was with dinero and comfort. I worked for myself and even though it wasn't exactly what I wanted to do, I stuck with it.

I do have to say that I missed only 5 days of work in 33 years and took two weeks vacation; not together. You will get there, this country is going though a bad patch, but we will come back: maybe even stronger.
 
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