Beutler developer

[Freakscene]

>anyone in Australia able to give some advice on where to get the needed chemicals to make >Beutler?

All available from Vanbar. I get mine from Ace chemicals here in Adelaide: http://www.acechem.com.au/

Marty

 

[P. Lynn Miller]

All available from Vanbar. I get mine from Ace chemicals here in Adelaide: http://www.acechem.com.au/

Thanks, Robert and Marty...

I suppose I should have been a bit more specific and asked about supply in Sydney...

Vanbar does have lots of chemicals listed on their web-site, but unfortunately the Sydney store does not keep a stock of chemicals and you have to have the chemicals shipped from the Melbourne warehouse. I will definitely pay the Sydney store a visit in the next few days and see if the situation has changed.

And I need to let my fingers do some walking through the Yellow Pages for chemical suppliers here in Sydney.

Just a quick note about the Sodium Carbonate... as that same as the household washing soda you can buy at the grocers?

Thanks,

 

[Fotohuis]

The original fomula went from Na2CO3 sicc. (water free) € 15,00/kg (1000g)

If you're using household soda it's 10 . H2O . Na2CO3
Sodiumcarbonate is worldwide produced by Solvay. So I do not think the quality is much different then here in Holland. You can get it for € 0,90 for 1kg (1000g) in the supermarket.

Household solda is more massive so not so easy to weight on a balance. The crystals are saturated with water.
But it's much cheaper.

For recalculating use above mentioned calculation for 100ml B solution:
1 mol Na2CO3 = 52g
1 mol Na2CO3 . 10 . H2O = 152g

152/52 x 5g = 14,6 g Soda

Success,

Robert

 

[P. Lynn Miller]

Robert,

Thanks for that technical clarification. Big price difference between €15 and €.90 per kilo! I have looked at your samples, both here and on your Flickerstream. Very nice. Are you using household soda?

Thanks,

 

[Fotohuis]

Big price difference between €15 and €.90 per kilo!

Well instead of 5g Na2CO3 (Sicc.) you need 14,6 g Soda 10.H2O.Na2CO3 but still the price difference is huge especially when you're selling the Beutler in the Fotohuis program
http://shop.fotohuisrovo.nl/product_info.php?cPath=31_37&products_id=316

Yes, I am using household soda instead of Na2CO3 Sicc.

Best regards,

Robert

 

[Tom A]

Robert, the household soda could probably be "heated" sufficiently to remove some of the water. Put in a baking pan and stick in the oven. The problem is of course that you dont know exactly how much H20 is being removed! It is hygroscopic and will attract moisture quickly though ( and turn into a solid mass).
The trick is to try it out and once you have established the "mixture" - stay consistent and dont change it.
Well, I have to mix some up today - as the weather is improving and I have some Acros to run and also some Kodak XX @250. At least my darkroom is back in use after having a leak in the ceiling fixed, though it still needs to be "dusted" off.

 

[Fotohuis]

Tom, the Sodiumcarbonate hydrate is going >107 degrees C in the sicc. form (without water).
It's indeed strong hygroscopic and therefore better to leave it in the household Soda form or order it in the right air tight packing as Na2CO3 sicc.

The purification of household Soda is pretty good so you don't need for this part P.A. quality (=Pro Analyse).

I just souped the next Efke 25 film in Beutler 1+1+10. This time for 7:00 minutes to be exactly on track.

 

[Tom A]

The house hold soda should work well - it is interesting that most photo chemicals are freely available in your local store. For Hydroxide you can use lye and/or drain cleaner and over here I buy my Borax at the corner store as "20 Mule-team Borax" - used as a detergent. Costs all of $3.99 for 5 lbs (2400 grams). R.A. grades get costly and in most cases are not necessary unless you do critical testing.
Somewhere I have a formula for "teaspoon" mixing Beutler - no scale needed. I used it for a while and it works - but a set of electronic scales works better for consistency.

 

[Fotohuis]

set of electronic scales works better for consistency.

These small electronic scales dropped in prices the last 10 year. I just ordered one a few months ago and checked it to my old balance. It was 100%.

€ 40,00 I paid for it: 0-500g +/- 0,1 gram
A Swedisch produkt EKS.

 

[Fotohuis]

Some work from this afternoon.
Efke 25 in Beutler 1+1+10 for 7:00 minutes.
You can count the stones, so sharp and in detail. Leica M7 + Summarit 2,5/75mm

 

[bowzart]

Sodium carbonate

Sodium carbonate

So now I'm curious about making some of this/these developer(s). I've used Arm & Hammer Washing soda as a source of Sodium Carbonate in my caffenol developer. Does anyone know if it can be used as the Sodium Carbonate for making up Beutler?

If you can find an art supply store, look and see if they carry procion dyes for fabric. If they do, they will most likely have bulk "soda ash" which they sell as a mordant. I buy it in five pound bags, and it is very inexpensive, probably less expensive than washing soda unless, of course, you can buy the washing soda in something other than retail packages.

"Soda ash" is nothing but anhydrous sodium carbonate. I use it in Beutler's as well as any other developer where sodium carbonate is specified. Works perfectly.

My source is Dakota Arts in Bellingham WA.

 

[bowzart]

When I began testing it for my own use, I got the formula from Aaron Sussman's Amateur Photographer's Handbook. Sussman admonishes us to use it at 65°F and NO WARMER. I don't know whether this comes from Willi Beutler's original publication or not. I have found that advice elswhere as well. However, other folks I know use it at 68F/20C, and they claim it works well.

Has anyone compared results at the two temperatures? Maybe the lower temperature produces tighter grain?

 

[Tom A]

I think that the original called for a "colder" developer simply because of the short times used for the old KB 14. Beutler recommended 5 min 15 sec for that film at 25 iso. With a warmer developer the times would have gone considerably below 5 min - which is usually not recommended.
I tried at the lower temperature and also with "normal" 20C and could not see any difference between the two.
With Pan F I used 5 min at 20C (1:1:8) and it worked fine - though adding a minute and doing it in 1:1:10 looked marginally better.
As with any developer/film you have to fine-tune the times/speed to fit your style of metering or guessing exposures. I find that it usually takes me a couple of rolls to get a negative that I like.

 

[P. Lynn Miller]

Robert, Tom and Bowzart...

Thanks for your replies...

Looking at the samples of Efke 25 and Beutler, it almost appears like it pushes the 'mid-range' of tones up the scale compared to stand developing with Rodinal 1:100 where the shadow more open but not 'brighter'. Not sure that makes sense...

Welder | Lakes Entrance | Victoria, Australia 2008

Bessa R2 | Voigtländer APO-Lanthar 90mm f3.5 | Efke KB25 | Rodinal 1:100 Stand

Of course, it could depend on your metering and exposure methods as well.

I will attempt to get the supplies I need to mix up some Beutler this weekend.

Thanks,

 

[bowzart]

I think that the original called for a "colder" developer simply because of the short times used for the old KB 14. Beutler recommended 5 min 15 sec for that film at 25 iso. With a warmer developer the times would have gone considerably below 5 min - which is usually not recommended.
I tried at the lower temperature and also with "normal" 20C and could not see any difference between the two.
With Pan F I used 5 min at 20C (1:1:8) and it worked fine - though adding a minute and doing it in 1:1:10 looked marginally better.
As with any developer/film you have to fine-tune the times/speed to fit your style of metering or guessing exposures. I find that it usually takes me a couple of rolls to get a negative that I like.

Great! thanks. Good information.

I have done very complete testing and have times worked out with a couple of films, but at the lower temperature. Since it is somewhat inconvenient to use 65°F, I'll go back and come up with better times. I'm not using Beutler's as much any more, (I've become enamored of Edwal 12) but I do use it to process my wife's zone plate images. There, we want very sharply defined and very assertive grain to give us a mezzotint like rendering of the soft image. Since the contrast is always suppressed with zp, I process her film (ilford delta 3200!) for at least 30 minutes in Beutler's, more if it's an overcast day. Does the job.

A friend of mine uses Beutler's exclusively, and has done so since learning it at the Art Center in Pasadena in the late 40's. He shot for magazines, and the images looked great. He shot a lot of tri x, which isn't the kind of film one would generally think of using in it. I printed for him for awhile and was amazed at the grain. It could be pretty rocky. However, when it showed up in print, it made much less difference than you might think. I'm sure it would have with a very fine screen, but that wasn't what they used.

 

[ath]

I am using for solution B, household Soda (Sodiumcarbonate) € 0,90/1000g.
It's Na2CO3 . 10 H2O so for the recalculation:

1 mol Na2CO3 = 52g
1 mol Na2CO3 . 10 . H2O = 152g

152/52 x 5g = 14,6 g Soda (Household)

Robert, this made me thinking. I was always under the impression that household (or washing) soda from the drugstore here in Germany is the dry form.
Yesterday, beeing in a new drugstore, I checked the availability of chemicals for the darkroom and ran into washing soda again. It clearly states that it is "kalzinierte Soda", i.e. dried. They even give the calculation: use 100g of this product instead of 152g "Kristallsoda".
They also include a warning that this soda is hygroscopic.

So I think you took the wrong amount of soda...

 

[Fotohuis]

It's not impossible that you can get household soda sicc.
My household soda: Decahydrate soda on the packing which means 10.H2O build in. The crystals of the soda are also wet.
If you have sodiumcarbonate sicc. it's dry fine white crystals without moisture.

In that way you have to weight in 5g instead of 14,6g.

 

[ath]

OK, then I have Soda sicc (it's a fine dry powder and likes to cake up when it hits water) and you have the decahydrate.

 

[P. Lynn Miller]

As I expected, I visited Vanbar-Sydney on Saturday and there was nothing on their shelves and they were out of Sodium Suliphite across the firm with no idea when they will be getting any in.

So I will start searching for chemical suppliers here in Sydney as soon as I get a spare minute or two.

 

[larmarv916]

Hello Tom ... Not to change the subject...But what developer did you use for the recent photos taken on Acros using the new 50 F1.1 that you posted on Flicker ? As the tonal range was very smooth and contrast in the deeper tones very clear.

Also I expermenting with ADOX APH-09 is that similar to the developer your taking about. It is similar to RO9 All the best...Laurance