ray*j*gun
Veteran
Yep as a member noted above its a gamble these days with KEH.....sometimes you def win
BGN Graded Leica M2 from KEH
- Thread starter dscelfo
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bucs
Well-known
I was going to buy the same camera. The cyber deal reduced the M2 to around usd560 and and M4 for about 550usd both in BGN condition.
Looked like a great deal but I passed on the last minute as I didnt have the time to fuss with return policies.
That M2 has to go back. RF looks shot. Maybe the mirror is damaged
Looked like a great deal but I passed on the last minute as I didnt have the time to fuss with return policies.
That M2 has to go back. RF looks shot. Maybe the mirror is damaged
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
Oops... I replied to this thread earlier, from my laptop, and now, in front of a larger screen, I see these black things are definitely screws. And the rangefinder patch doesn't look too good either. Does it line up at all?
I guess I'm siding with the rest of the crowd and recommending that you contact KEH and ask for a replacement or a refund.
I guess I'm siding with the rest of the crowd and recommending that you contact KEH and ask for a replacement or a refund.
dscelfo
Member
vertical seems spot on and horizontal doesn't line up at all. This spiderweb/cracking look in the rangefinder patch is only visible when I point a light source indirectly at the camera. Otherwise, its just a very small dark spot just right of center top. My concern is that this is a sign of bad things to come. Is this what delamination looks like?
I've left a voicemail at KEH and emailed them twice. No response yet.
I've left a voicemail at KEH and emailed them twice. No response yet.
Vics
Veteran
Send it right back, but call first.
maddoc
... likes film again.
You can check for prism separation very easily by holding the camera with the VF eyepiece pointing to a strong light source and then looking into the small (left) RF window from the front side. If you see any black spots or areas there then you have either prism separation or deterioration of the mirror layer.
About KEH return policy, that may work well as long as you are living in the US but not from foreign countries. I recently had to return a lens that I had bought from KEH`s eBay outlet with "14 days hassle free return policy" and free shipping in the US. Since I am in Japan I had to pay for shipping to Japan and also import tax. The lens was soft for some reason and I send them a message through the eBay system stating that I would like to return the lens. I got a quick reply stating that they are sorry for this and if improper focus with my camera might be the problem. I replied that improper focus could be a problem but don`t know the exact reason. Then I received their offer to return the lens for refund of the full purchase price but not shipping costs. The eBay system however showed shipping cost will also be refunded. I asked KEH about this and I got the reply that the eBay system erroneously assumed a defect lens as the reason for return but it was just an incompatibility.... The hassle-free return cost me the original shipping plus import tax plus return shipping (with EMS of course due to the required tracking number)
7 years ago I had bought a Rigid Summicron from KEH, focus was completely stiff, they offered an exchange of the lens. In that case I had to pay for initial shipping plus customs handling fee (They only had FedEx shipping at that time), return shipping, and shipping plus customs handling fee for the exchange lens.
About KEH return policy, that may work well as long as you are living in the US but not from foreign countries. I recently had to return a lens that I had bought from KEH`s eBay outlet with "14 days hassle free return policy" and free shipping in the US. Since I am in Japan I had to pay for shipping to Japan and also import tax. The lens was soft for some reason and I send them a message through the eBay system stating that I would like to return the lens. I got a quick reply stating that they are sorry for this and if improper focus with my camera might be the problem. I replied that improper focus could be a problem but don`t know the exact reason. Then I received their offer to return the lens for refund of the full purchase price but not shipping costs. The eBay system however showed shipping cost will also be refunded. I asked KEH about this and I got the reply that the eBay system erroneously assumed a defect lens as the reason for return but it was just an incompatibility.... The hassle-free return cost me the original shipping plus import tax plus return shipping (with EMS of course due to the required tracking number)
7 years ago I had bought a Rigid Summicron from KEH, focus was completely stiff, they offered an exchange of the lens. In that case I had to pay for initial shipping plus customs handling fee (They only had FedEx shipping at that time), return shipping, and shipping plus customs handling fee for the exchange lens.
dscelfo
Member
KEH sent me a return shipping label and offered to install the screws. Still unclear as to what they'll do about the rangefinder but either way, its on its way back to KEH.
Matthew Runkel
Well-known
I don't think it's worth messing around with an older M that has any optical problems with the rangefinder. Don't let KEH try to repair this. If it is even repairable, the work is probably beyond their capabilities. There are plenty of M2s out there with no issues. Find one of those. Above all, you want a clear rangefinder with a bright, contrasty patch.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Just return it, this camera is as screwed as KEH is!
daveleo
what?
From my experience with KEH (altough I never bought a BGN item from them), this problem would have easily been defined and solved with one email and a few pictures. No hassle at all.
Now.... if you actually did something to "fix" the rangefinder mechanism, that could become arguable.
I hope they take it back and give you your refund, but it seems it became a bigger deal here than it needed to be. Good luck.
Now.... if you actually did something to "fix" the rangefinder mechanism, that could become arguable.
I hope they take it back and give you your refund, but it seems it became a bigger deal here than it needed to be. Good luck.
Darshan
Well-known
I have had good experience with KEH BGN grade.
Bought an Oly XA4 in July in BGN grade, works great, just some cosmetic marks.
Also bought a black Rollei 35s in BGN grade which I returned (w/o hassle) after a few weeks in exchange for a EX+ chrome Rollei 35s with strap and a pouch.
Bought an Oly XA4 in July in BGN grade, works great, just some cosmetic marks.
Also bought a black Rollei 35s in BGN grade which I returned (w/o hassle) after a few weeks in exchange for a EX+ chrome Rollei 35s with strap and a pouch.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
I once got a lens from KEH that was an older version that did not match the description of the item I purchased. When I called them for a RMA I also got e-mailed a prepaid shipping form for the return shipping. My cost was zero for the mistake/inconvenience.
Recently I ordered a different lens, but later had buyer's remorse. Again I called for a RMA number to return the lens, but this time I payed for the return shipping (my mistake not theirs).
BTW I would try to secure the 15% discount on your next purchase which I think you most likely get if you asked for it. Also know that I buy from KEH because of their return policy. To me with KEH there really is no loss or gamble because if I do not like the condition; or if I don't think I got good value; or if I don't agree with their grading of a purchased item; or even if I just change my mind; the worst case senario is return postage (I live in the USA).
Last week I took advantage of the 15% sale and bought a "E+" IIIG that was in remarkable condition at a great price.
Happy shopping and good luck.
Cal
dscelfo
Member
I didn't intend this thread to be a knock on KEH. I really just wanted to illustrate what BGN conditition meant to a body because I couldn't find any information about bodies prior to my purchase. I had made the decision to post these pictures even before the camera arrived. The fact that the screws werent installed and the rangefinder was way off was just a weird secondary thing that I couldn't not mention.
KEH provided the free shipping label and is gladly taking it back, no additional questions asked.
KEH provided the free shipping label and is gladly taking it back, no additional questions asked.
gb hill
Veteran
KEH is really great for buying my cheap Canon FD lenses. Every lens I bought at bgn prices were better than I imagined when received.
daveleo
what?
Years back I did read a discussion that the KEH grading was inconsistent at times. The best guess was there were various people doing the grading & bagging and etc etc and inconsistencies creep in, but that explanation was speculation.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Cal
I missed my first IIIG, but this one is fresher and looks kinda brand new, even though it was made in 1957. BTW this IIIG is older than me, and I wish I looked as young as this camera. LOL.
The inspiration for getting another screwmount body was that I have all this great LTM glass and I had this extra 43/50 mm VF'er that came with my chrome Pentax-L. The VF'er has the offset for use on a LTM body and was a surplus part.
The "Ex+" condition was a rare find, and on top of that the 15% markdown on the price made it a very-very good deal for use with my black Canon 28/3.5: 35/1.8 Nikkor in LTM; and this tiny 45/2.8 Supper Rokkor (Minolta).
On top of the IIIG I got another deal on a LTM Leicavit for a LTM taking advantage of the 15% discount.
Cal
Bob Michaels
nobody special
While I have done much business with KEH, I am not close to them but have a good friend (used camera dealer) who is.
1) their market is people who make photos, not camera collectors. Their business model is designed for people who use cameras not those who look at them.
2) their QC is the customer since there is no way they can adequately check everything in a camera they just bought and still sell at their prices. That is why they have the liberal return policy.
3) they must buy camera gear at low prices to still make a profit after everything that does not sell or has problems causing returns.
Just understand how they do business and you may find it suits what you want or maybe it does not.
1) their market is people who make photos, not camera collectors. Their business model is designed for people who use cameras not those who look at them.
2) their QC is the customer since there is no way they can adequately check everything in a camera they just bought and still sell at their prices. That is why they have the liberal return policy.
3) they must buy camera gear at low prices to still make a profit after everything that does not sell or has problems causing returns.
Just understand how they do business and you may find it suits what you want or maybe it does not.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
I know you didn't, and I'm glad you shared your experience. I'm also sorry for your disappointment.
I'm offering my support, and I'm telling you that if you ask for an extendsion of the 15% sale on a camera body in a cool manner that I think you likely will be a very-very happy customer at a future date. I'm suggesting that you would get rewarded in a great way and to use this inconvenience/disapointment to your advantage.
Also know that in KEH's grading I often was surprise in a wonderful way. With the lens I had buyer's remorse and later returned: it was a black paint 50 Lux Pre ASPH that had a resonable price when compared to EBAY. It was listed as with case and caps in "E+" condition, but it came boxed, the focus was still stiff because it was an unused lens, and the lens should of been graded as "LN."
I just couldn't see me using the lens because I love my 50 Lux ASPH too much.
Best of luck whatever you do. I hope you do lock in a 15% discount that could be used in the future.
Cal
