Borderline Scammers on eBoy

[bmattock]

Note: The below is my opinion. I am not accusing anyone of breaking the law, I am merely expressing my opinion that they are not very ethical.

We've been discussing various types of scammers and what actually constitutes dishonest behavior by buyers and sellers. Here's one I have had dealings with recently. This fellow has access (apparently) to a large number of camera lenses for the Braun Super Paxette camera, which uses a 39mm thread mount similar to the Leica 39mm thread mount - but the lens registration distance is WAY OFF and hence, you can't use Braun Paxette lenses on a Leica.

However, this fellow insists on listing these lenses in the "Leica" lens section, and pretending that he knows nothing about the lens - it "might" be for a Canon or Leica screwmount lens, according to him. He knows perfectly well it is not - I've told him on numerous occasions. Why does he not correct himself and list the lenses properly? Because Paxette lenses are not worth very much - 5 or 10 dollars. Rare Leica lenses can be worth a fortune for a collector.

He used to say outright that these lenses were for a Leica or a Canon, and show photos of the lenses attached to a Leica IIIf (they will screw on, they just don't focus). Since I have started hassling him via email, now he just shows the lens. But his wording is misleading - on purpose, in my opinion.

This is about the fourth or fifth such auction he's listed. I'm getting tired of emailing him and telling him what he already knows.

Here's the auction:

eBoy Paxette lens listed for Leica

The wording is oh, so clever:

Not sure if it was made for the Canon or Leica screw mount cameras,but the rear mount is 39mm and does have coupling for range finder.I did put it on to a Extension tube for Leica screw.

Oh, yes, he's sure (my opinion). It is NOT for a Leica. But he is not technically lying, either. It is 39mm screw mount, it does have rangefinder coupling. And if you have the exact size extension tube to make up the difference between Leica and Paxette rear-flange-to-film distance, you can technically make the lens focus - but not with the focus distance marks, and not with any kind of rangefinder coupling - just by pure luck.

Like I said, I've written to this guy before - he does this over and over with different Paxette lenses that he tries to pass off as Leica lenses. He overprices them and describes them as rare (rare does not have to equal expensive). He never actually responds to me, but he'll change his description slightly, reluctantly, if I threaten to report him to eBoy for fraudulent behavior. Now he's retreated to a semi-quasi-correct terminology that I doubt eBoy would take action on.

It makes me mad. Somebody is going to think they've found an 'uknown' or 'rare' Leica lens and snap it up - and will find that they can't take photos with it. They may demand a refund, but more likely, they'll just put the thing on a shelf, one more bitter experience that turns people negative about eBoy.

Is the guy being dishonest? Not if you read the actual words. He never actually says the lens is for a Leica. But I feel this kind of borderline playing with words is dishonest - in intent if not actually in substance. The guy wants you to make a mistake - he's counting on it.

What a shame. The sad thing is, he has none. I find it very irritating.

However, to quote one fellow RFF'er - "never wise up a sucker."

Seller is:

World Trade Camera Ltd.
20 Vesey Street
New York, NY 10007
212-227-1998
mail@shotwtc.com
http://www.shopwtc.com/

Your opinions?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bobofish]

I'd have to say I agree that that is borderline fraudulent, but the result of unfortunately too many unscrupulous sellers.

It's this kind of thing (along with oh so many others) that has turned Ebay into an e-tailers' market, rather than what I think it used to be, a marketplace for everybody.

I've never been a big ebayer, although from time to time I spend a lot of time pining for things there, but I remember how my friends used to buy and sell things that they otherwise could only with great difficulty obtain or get rid of. Now, thanks to high fees for everybody but e-tailers, the little guys are almost gone. It's a pity.

I have some violins and violin bows I'd like to sell, but after following the auctions for a few months, I've seen that 99% of the violin market on Ebay is absolute crap, priced at $10-$100 dollars, and more often than not from Romania. Consequently good auctions are lost in the mix, and most people just stay away from Ebay for violin stuff.

And add to that of course the large chance of getting scammed, well there you go.

 

[dexdog]

I would be the last person to suggest that we bombard this guy with emails sent from his eBay auction...

 

[Solinar]

...... or report this as key word spamming!

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/keyword-spam.html

 

[fgianni]

Bill

This is exacty the kind of behavior that might be perfectly legal, but is definitely unhetical. It counts on the buyer not being able to spot the trick in his wording, and on his ignorance of the object being sold.

 

[bmattock]

Bill

This is exacty the kind of behavior that might be perfectly legal, but is definitely unhetical. It counts on the buyer not being able to spot the trick in his wording, and on his ignorance of the object being sold.

Right, this is what we were discussing the other day, I was thinking of it as I read his auction. I collect Paxettes, and I love 'em, but they are not high-end cameras, and the lenses are only worth anything to a Paxette collector.

And since Braun Paxettes were such an obscure little brand (better known in the UK than the USA in the 1950's), not many newbies to Leica collecting are going to know that a lens from companies such as Enna, Schneider, or Steinheil is just as likely to be for a Braun Paxette as it is to be for a Leica (all three companies made lenses for both brands). However in this case - the lens itself says BRAUN on it - cannot be for a Leica.

I would feel differently about this creature *if* he were truly ignorant of the lens and what it is made for. But he has listed a good bunch of these lately, and I've emailed him about all of them. He has never responded to me directly, but he has stopped directly saying that the lenses are for Leica (now he just implies it) and he has stopped taking photos of the lens mounted on a Leica. Skirting the legal line, but definitely dishonest, IMHO.

With all that said, though - it is still ultimately up to the buyer to educate themselves before splashing out. Many cannot or will not, and when they end up ripped off, they have bitter feelings about eBoy, but they never blame themselves.

I try to help by wising up sellers who may be ignorant of Paxette vs Leica lenses, but this guy is resistant.

Ultimately, it is still Caveat Emptor, although I try to help.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

I would be the last person to suggest that we bombard this guy with emails sent from his eBay auction...

I appreciate the sentiment, but I would not recommend doing anything of the sort. I find that bad behavior may force others to practice less bad behavior for a awhile, but it never cures the sickness they have. It is a treatment, not a cure, and it forces you to go down an ugly road yourself, so no need to get muddy to try to fix this guy.

I wish there was some way to turn on the 'ethical' light in some folk's souls, but they usually believe themselves to be very honest - nobody looks at themselves in the mirror and thinks they are a crook.

I posted the listing as an exemplar and a cautionary tale - the wording is perfectly legally correct and perfectly wrong at the same time - many people just don't read that well to grasp the tiny turn of phrase that is the equivalent of having his fingers crossed while crossing his heart.

Thanks for the sentiment, though!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Send a message to the bidders on the auction. I'll bet a lot of them retract their bids. Obviously you keep and eye on this guy.

Is this another "Cambridge Camera" seller?

 

[Kin Lau]

Put up a warning page on your site Bill. Your site comes up quite often when I'm google'ing for info on old cameras and such. Just make sure to list as many of the lense names as possible, since that's what people will google.

Quote this guy's pages as an example of "mistaken identity". Cameraquest would likely be a good ally for this since many would turn to Steve's pages for LTM info.

 

[bmattock]

Send a message to the bidders on the auction. I'll bet a lot of them retract their bids. Obviously you keep and eye on this guy.

Is this another "Cambridge Camera" seller?

I suspect that this guy is not 'dishonest' in the sense of not shipping product when he sells it. I see him more as a guy who is willing to play a bit fast and loose with the absolute truth to make a sale - maybe even prepared to refund if the buyer is totally outraged on discovering the truth - and marking it up as cost of doing business. Sketchy is the word I'd use to describe him.

And I don't keep an eye on him, per se. I do collect Paxette cameras (because I'm an idiot, they're junk) and so I have an eBoy search for the various types of Paxette lenses (there were a ton of them, which make them interesting to collect). His name shows up about once every three weeks lately, and it is always the same thing - Paxette lens listed as a Leica/Canon LTM lens. This time is the closest he's come to actually telling the truth, but he's still obviously being intentionally misleading.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

Put up a warning page on your site Bill. Your site comes up quite often when I'm google'ing for info on old cameras and such. Just make sure to list as many of the lense names as possible, since that's what people will google.

Quote this guy's pages as an example of "mistaken identity". Cameraquest would likely be a good ally for this since many would turn to Steve's pages for LTM info.

I didn't think of that, thanks!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Flyfisher Tom]

Bill,

IMHO, this is fraudulent. Feigning ignorance when he clearly has the knowledge is fraud. No different than saying in a house sale as the seller that there MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT be termite damage, even though he knows full well that there is.

Similar to those sellers who list "unfilled out warranty card" as if it would be of use to the secondary purchaser. Almost every lens/camera manufacturer only warrants the product to the first buyer (and even then only to the first buyer through a licensed retailer).


I'm glad to see you are keeping an eye on these things and letting us know, appreciate it.

 

[sooner]

Bill,

I agree completely with your sentiments about this guy. It reminds me of watching politicians duck perfectly straightforward questions with nebulous answers that may not be lies, exactly, but certainly mislead. And in some areas of the law, failure to confess what you know to be true can be illegal, such as real estate people who don't tell potential buyers about the leaky roof. However, this is what feedback is supposed to catch over time. Maybe the best defense would be a citizenry who were alerted to possible trickery when confronted by semantic vagaries. By the way, what is the url for your webpage? --John

 

[ch1]

To me, this creep is "beyond the pale". The address he is using is at Ground Zero! As a 9/11 "survivor" I would be pleased to eviscerate this SOB with a dull butter knife (you know, to make it really painful).

Please report this guy to eBay Fraud - he is clearly a scammer!

 

[bmattock]

Bill,

I agree completely with your sentiments about this guy. It reminds me of watching politicians duck perfectly straightforward questions with nebulous answers that may not be lies, exactly, but certainly mislead. And in some areas of the law, failure to confess what you know to be true can be illegal, such as real estate people who don't tell potential buyers about the leaky roof. However, this is what feedback is supposed to catch over time. Maybe the best defense would be a citizenry who were alerted to possible trickery when confronted by semantic vagaries. By the way, what is the url for your webpage? --John

http://www.growlery.com and http://www.growlery.com/wigwam

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[ScottS]

Send a message to the bidders on the auction. I'll bet a lot of them retract their bids. Obviously you keep and eye on this guy.

Is this another "Cambridge Camera" seller?

Actually, this is the same store that Kurt pointed me to in this thread . It's somewhat surprising, as when I was actually in the store they seemed to have some things at reasonable prices.

Scott

 

[ScottS]

To me, this creep is "beyond the pale". The address he is using is at Ground Zero! As a 9/11 "survivor" I would be pleased to eviscerate this SOB with a dull butter knife (you know, to make it really painful).

Please report this guy to eBay Fraud - he is clearly a scammer!

The address he's using is the actual physical address of the brick-and-mortar camera store. Doesn't excuse the misrepresentation in the auction, but I've been in the store - actual used inventory at that address.

Scott

 

[ch1]

The address he's using is the actual physical address of the brick-and-mortar camera store. Doesn't excuse the misrepresentation in the auction, but I've been in the store - actual used inventory at that address.

Scott

I trying to picture the store (assuming it is on ground level). I know #14 is the NY County Lawyer's Assn. (I am a member). And #18 is now a vacant lot/construction site that will serve as the gargage entrance for a new apartment bldg. that fronts on Barcllay St just to the north of Vesey (my bank is a lender and I checked the documentation). There is also a delicatessen on the block but I do not know the address number.

For the life of me I cannot picture (no pun intended) a camera store on that block (and I've been up a down it so many times!).

Oh come to think of it, there is one of those non-descript storefronts that seem to sell a little of this (e.g. phonecards) and a little of that (cigarette lighters and of-brand digital phones). Could that be the place? 😕

If so, the bricks & mortar operation is as "scammy" as the eBay listings. Certainly not the kind of merchant that gives you the "warm and fuzzy" about their ethics!

Then again, be it b & m or eBay - Caveat Emptor!

 

[bmattock]

Actually, this is the same store that Kurt pointed me to in this thread . It's somewhat surprising, as when I was actually in the store they seemed to have some things at reasonable prices.

Scott

Scott,

I can believe that the guy has a real store, with real goods and possibly even 'reasonable' prices. My suspicion is that he's shifty around the edges, you know? There are degrees. I don't suspect he's a fellow who would actually steal.

However, using the ToolHaus.org freebie tool to check feedback, you can see a bit of a pattern - of course not all negative feedback is automatically a knock against him - some folks have unrealistic expectations. But try this:

http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=worldtradecamera

I note that people often complain that he adds more money to requests for shipping after they have already paid a previous shipping amount. Maybe he didn't like the profit margin he was making after looking things over and decided to bump it a bit? Or maybe he's just bad at figuring shipping costs - but a good businessperson would fix that toot sweet.

Like I say, I don't think this guy is a 'crook' in the usual sense. I suspect rather that he's ok with the idea of you drawing the wrong conclusion and paying for something that won't fit what you think it fits. Shady more than pitch-black.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[ScottS]

I trying to picture the store (assuming it is on ground level). I know #14 is the NY County Lawyer's Assn. (I am a member). And #18 is now a vacant lot/construction site that will serve as the gargage entrance for a new apartment bldg. that fronts on Barcllay St just to the north of Vesey (my bank is a lender and I checked the documentation). There is also a delicatessen on the block but I do not know the address number.

For the life of me I cannot picture (no pun intended) a camera store on that block (and I've been up a down it so many times!).

Oh come to think of it, there is one of those non-descript storefronts that seem to sell a little of this (e.g. phonecards) and a little of that (cigarette lighters and of-brand digital phones). Could that be the place? 😕

If so, the bricks & mortar operation is as "scammy" as the eBay listings. Certainly not the kind of merchant that gives you the "warm and fuzzy" about their ethics!

Then again, be it b & m or eBay - Caveat Emptor!

Caveat Emptor, indeed. Having a real storefront, of course, doesn't prevent a store from being "scammy". The worldtradecamera "about me" ebay page has a photo inside the store that gives you a feel for its size. The left wall pictured probably shows about 2/3 its length, and the store is approximately square. The "World Trade Camera Ltd." sign is in large letters on the front. It is, however, relatively new in this location. They moved in _after_ 9/11. I'm guessing it was some time in 2002 that they opened -- the ebay account dates from that time. From what little I can find on the web, it appears that this store is basically Wall Street Camera in a new location with a new name (same people, etc.). I'm not sure when Wall Street Camera closed.

Scott