BREXIT: UK members might want to consider GAS before the June 23 referendum

[johannielscom]

If one country treats its citizens better than the others, it will attract people. It means that an equilibrium is reached when everybody is equally poor... 🙁 Open borders will not work in EU (or anywhere else) when some countries are poor and others are rich.

A bit of deduction here.

So, if having open borders, you have to ensure that wealth is distributed equally throughout the EU or you'll be flooded with migrant workers or asylum seekers or immigrants.

Elsewhere in this thread it was established that countries like Norway and Switzerland have open borders, even though they are not EU members. As will the UK, when it leaves the EU.

So can anyone please explain to me how the 'Leave' voters can have their cake and eat it too, in a coherent way?

Can't close the borders
Refuse to spread wealth equally, or contribute to a process that does
Want to keep migrant workers and immigrants out

I see an eternal Catch-22, unless you change one variable and for instance continue tributing to said process.

 

[johannielscom]

I for One am not against open borders ....

The World has enough 'Government' and lots do the job poorly but why be subjugated to even more rules and laws being in the EU
It seems it's all Compromise and One ends up with getting less than what You want

OTOH, if you don't compromise you also get less than you want, e.g. Trump.

Compromise is what democracy is in the member states of the EU and in the EU itself. It has brought us a lot since the 1950s.

The EU laws in many cases substitute national laws and as such are not 'more', they're created in Brussels and implemented by national governments. And the equality of those laws across the board has brought many benefits in labour, production, transport, you name it.

Think of it this way: who would want New York state, Texas or California leave the US since it gets too many migrant workers from say Oklahoma, doesn't want to contribute to the US treasury anymore and complains it doesn't have enough influence in Washington?
I'd tell them to stop being quitters and put their backs into a better distribution of opportunities and wealth.

As the Brits should do. Last year 196,000 people came to the UK with a job secured before they left their home, according to the BBC News:

In all, 294,000 people migrated to the UK for work, two thirds of whom had a definite job

and I wonder, where were the Brits when these jobs were handed out? Home, on the sofa?

 

[David Hughes]

Why should Britain get out of the EU? With the EU they always have someone else to blame for their own faults.

As if the EU would hinder the british economy to grow. As if only the EU makes stupid laws. All countries have many stupid laws even without the help of the EU.

The behavior of the british representatives in EU negotiations is so bad and it's still accepted by the others as the typical british behavior when outside of their own country. Behave this way in negotiations with the US and they will kick you out. You even got the biggest discount of all EU-payers with this. You really want to risk all these privileges?

I still love the european idea (to be more than just an open economic market) but maybe it's the wrong idea and the exit of GB is the right move back to single autonomous countries who only have the choice of US or Russia or China as big partner in the background.

Hi,

Please don't judge us by our politicians; I often think they go into that trade because the can't do the sums (especially percentages) needed to sell second hand cars...

Also their personality disorders are seen as character in that low trade.

There are a few exceptions to the rule but they don't go in for climbing greasy poles.

Regards, David

 

[David Hughes]

1) I don't understand how a British muslim from Leeds is defending himself by conducting a suicide attack on the London tube (2005), can you enlighten me? We are not talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Regarding Christianity, it took 500 years of religious wars and three or four bloody revolutions to put them at their place and enjoy the religious freedom of Western Europe, it appears that many European born muslims don't get the concept of "secular government" that well.

2) That was a war and the British didn't bomb their own fellow citizens. Not the Germans for the matter.

So...again...what are precisely talking about?

I thought I was talking about the failure of the UK (or France for the matter) to integrate certain people with certain religious background that today cannot be attacked otherwise "you're racist" while for the Brexit campaign is perfectly fine to depict the Europeans as the "enemy" without any accusation of discrimination, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Hi,

Judging by some of the anti-Muslim graffiti and attacks on them in the UK he/they was/were defending his/their religion, family etc. but taken to extremes. And I think I've mention Christians bombing Muslims so won't repeat it.

As for those wars, we went to their country, so could hardly be defending ourselves. It dates from that strange period when 'attack' became 'pre-emptive defence' but I'm old fashioned.

And I though Christians believed in turning the other cheek etc; this tends to 'bias' my thinking at times.

'nuff said?

Regards, David

 

[David Hughes]

With All due respect Johannes
You seem quite passionate ( a good thing) about this 🙂
but I know a small part of your Life ( reading your occasional posts here on RFf)
as of Late You have had Economic Hardships ... little work, no work

What has the EU done for You ?
Has Your Life been filled with Opportunities or have you not taken advantage of it ?


As for 'Compromise'
It can be a well valued tool , you certainly need it in Life
but You must weigh it's worth ... It's Not the End All

As for Trump
perhaps a Pathological Liar, He will say anything to Convince people 'he' is their man... Every day he contradicts /changes his Stance on things...

Hi,

I won't comment on Trump, but the EU did bring a lot of benefits. F'instance, my wife was allowed to join the pension scheme and get the same benefits as the first class workers. The second class workers, strangely enough, were mostly female.

And I don't have to pay tax or import duty on stuff from Germany, France and so on. I pay ebay (say) and it's just delivered.

From everywhere else it's about 5% import duty added to the price and postage etc, then a sub total and 20% added and then 8 pounds (11 or 12 $?) handling and calculating fee.

Regards, David

 

[Borge H]

A bit of deduction here.

So, if having open borders, you have to ensure that wealth is distributed equally throughout the EU or you'll be flooded with migrant workers or asylum seekers or immigrants.

Elsewhere in this thread it was established that countries like Norway and Switzerland have open borders, even though they are not EU members. As will the UK, when it leaves the EU.

So can anyone please explain to me how the 'Leave' voters can have their cake and eat it too, in a coherent way?

Can't close the borders
Refuse to spread wealth equally, or contribute to a process that does
Want to keep migrant workers and immigrants out

I see an eternal Catch-22, unless you change one variable and for instance continue tributing to said process.

I think the exit voters hope that Britain can keep the trade agreements with EU but leave the Schengen cooperation (free movement of people). But I guess it is more complicated than this.

The free trade involves a lot of negations with a lot of implications on all aspects of the society. If you are not a member of EU you are not invited to the negotiations. Free trade within EU involves also free trade of agricultural products. But many countries want to protect their farmers from outside competition. In free trade negotiations between EU and USA it usually ends with agricultural discussions. Look at the trade between Russia and EU. What is the main problem - agricultural products...

Norway is called a "fax-democracy", they get fax from Brussels with the latest laws they have to introduce in their legal system. They have no saying or voice in this, they only have to follow. That was the main reason why Sweden joined EU, we want a voice in these negotiations.

I do not think Britain will like to just follow the EU laws, like Norway...

I hope that Britain will stay in and continue to cooperate with us from Sweden and some other friends to change EU to a better place.

 

[user237428934]

Hi,

Please don't judge us by our politicians; I often think they go into that trade because the can't do the sums (especially percentages) needed to sell second hand cars...

Also their personality disorders are seen as character in that low trade.

There are a few exceptions to the rule but they don't go in for climbing greasy poles.

Regards, David

Don't worry. I've been to GB three times and only met the nicest people. The majority of british people I've seen on the continent were mostly drunk 😉

I hope GB stays in the EU.

 

[sevo]

it appears that many European born muslims don't get the concept of "secular government" that well.

The difficulty is that "Muslim" is very much up to definition - and the right wing prefers to readjust that definition mid-argument, so statistics collected within an Islamistic group are applied to every person originating from a "Muslim country", regardless whether that person ever was a Muslim at all (many recent refugees from Iraq are Christian or Yezidic) and regardless whether that person is religious or not (most Germans, of any origin and nominal faith, are either atheist or very loose adherents of their faith that will only ever visit a church, mosque or synagogue for baptisms, marriages, funeral services and similar family events).

 

[sevo]

I think the exit voters hope that Britain can keep the trade agreements with EU but leave the Schengen cooperation (free movement of people).

Britain always has kept out of Schengen...

 

[user237428934]

Britain always has kept out of Schengen...

Exactly. When I fly to London it does not feel like a flight inside the EU just because of passport controls.

 

[Gid]

I wonder, where were the Brits when these jobs were handed out? Home, on the sofa?

That really isn't called for.

In reality business prefers pre-trained immigrants to the cost of training a home grown workforce because its the cheaper option and cheaper from the EU where they don't have to fund the cost of the paperwork / visas etc to get a non EU national in (which is still cheaper than training).

 

[valdas]

That really isn't called for.

In reality business prefers pre-trained immigrants to the cost of training a home grown workforce because its the cheaper option and cheaper from the EU where they don't have to fund the cost of the paperwork / visas etc to get a non EU national in (which is still cheaper than training).

Exactly. That is another good point - in Eastern Europe governments spend a lot of money to train and educate nurses and doctors (using local tax payers money). Then those nurses and doctors go to Norway, Sweden, UK because of 5 or 10 times higher salaries. Somehow this argument is easily "overlooked". In a way those richer countries put a very serious strain on national budgets of Eastern European countries - not only by qualified labour force drain, lost investments to educate those people, but also by putting significant wage inflation pressure - it's very difficult to keep people locally when they can easily go somewhere else within EU and earn more. I guess the expectations of free movement was that EU will help the covergence of living standards in this way, but if each country wants to cherry pick then it is a lose-lose game.

 

[Wulfthari]

I think the exit voters hope that Britain can keep the trade agreements with EU but leave the Schengen cooperation (free movement of people). But I guess it is more complicated than this.

The UK is not in the Schenger area as far as I know, but I agree, the Brexit supporters want to have all the advantages of the current status quo without the disadvantages, that is pretty damn unfair for me.

The difficulty is that "Muslim" is very much up to definition - and the right wing prefers to readjust that definition mid-argument, so statistics collected within an Islamistic group are applied to every person originating from a "Muslim country", regardless whether that person ever was a Muslim at all (many recent refugees from Iraq are Christian or Yezidic) and regardless whether that person is religious or not (most Germans, of any origin and nominal faith, are either atheist or very loose adherents of their faith that will only ever visit a church, mosque or synagogue for baptisms, marriages, funeral services and similar family events).

I am not talking about ethnicity, but religion...some British foreign fighters in Siria are of European background and got converted and radicalised in the UK.

So I am mostly talking about "domestic" terrorism, I seriously doubt a Syrian refugee that escapes from ISIS wil come in Europe and become a terrorist, those who want to fight for Radical Islam remain on the field and those who leave have enough of religious extremism.

Exactly. That is another good point - in Eastern Europe governments spend a lot of money to train and educate nurses and doctors (using local tax payers money). Then those nurses and doctors go to Norway, Sweden, UK because of 5 or 10 times higher salaries. Somehow this argument is easily "overlooked". In a way those richer countries put a very serious strain on national budgets of Eastern European countries - not only by qualified labour force drain, lost investments to educate those people, but also by putting significant wage inflation pressure - it's very difficult to keep people locally when they can easily go somewhere else within EU and earn more. I guess the expectations of free movement was that EU will help the covergence of living standards in this way, but if each country wants to cherry pick then it is a lose-lose game.

This problem is not just for Eastern Europe, but also for countries like Italy and Spain that are "exporting" heads in countries where intellectual work is still considered valuable.

My current company "shopped" a lot in Europe in the last years, the CEO is German, most senior managers are French, technical people are mostly Italians, now some people in Italy realises that to "build" an engineer the state spends more or less 100.000 euros that goes to enrich another country, but that's the spirit of international mobility...do you want good people? You have to pay for them.

 

[paulfish4570]

so. much. ignorance. here. of. islam. and. christianity. 🙁

"As for Trump
perhaps a Pathological Liar, he will say anything to Convince people 'he' is their man,
Every day he contradicts /changes his Stance on things..." and hillary's not a liar - or traitor? please, if you're going to dog one, dog the other. and what's either got to do with Brexit? 🙂

Wulhthari: amen again and again ...

 

[user237428934]

Exactly. That is another good point - in Eastern Europe governments spend a lot of money to train and educate nurses and doctors (using local tax payers money). Then those nurses and doctors go to Norway, Sweden, UK because of 5 or 10 times higher salaries. Somehow this argument is easily "overlooked". In a way those richer countries put a very serious strain on national budgets of Eastern European countries - not only by qualified labour force drain, lost investments to educate those people, but also by putting significant wage inflation pressure - it's very difficult to keep people locally when they can easily go somewhere else within EU and earn more. I guess the expectations of free movement was that EU will help the covergence of living standards in this way, but if each country wants to cherry pick then it is a lose-lose game.

That's not exactly true. They are educated there. They work somewhere else for a higher salary and then they send quite a lot of money back to relatives at home. For some countries this money flow from the west is vital.

 

[Borge H]

Britain always has kept out of Schengen...

OK, I was wrong. What I meant was the free movement of all EU citizens within EU. That includes Britain, as you can move from Poland and work in Britain. Inside the Schengen area you do not have to show your passport, but Great Britain and Ireland are not part of this.

The exit voters do not want this free movement nor, of course, be a member in the Schengen area.

There will be a lot of visas to issue in the future then...

 

[valdas]

so. much. ignorance. here. of. islam. and. christianity. 🙁

"As for Trump
perhaps a Pathological Liar, he will say anything to Convince people 'he' is their man,
Every day he contradicts /changes his Stance on things..." and hillary's not a liar - or traitor? please, if you're going to dog one, dog the other. and what's either got to do with Brexit? 🙂

Wulhthari: amen again and again ...

hey, you had the third way - Bernie!!! 🙂 I would gess that most of Europeans would vote for him and most of Americans would not understand why 🙂

 

[valdas]

That's not exactly true. They are educated there. They work somewhere else for a higher salary and then they send quite a lot of money back to relatives at home. For some countries this money flow from the west is vital.

not if you are talking about Eastern Europeans. they are educated in Warsaw, Vilnius and Tallinn and they stop sending money home as soon as they realize they can use it for holiday in Canary Islands (which happens very quickly). Of course, there is a new generation that goes to UK for education as well, but that's a different story...

 

[Gid]

The UK is not in the Schenger area as far as I know, but I agree, the Brexit supporters want to have all the advantages of the current status quo without the disadvantages, that is pretty damn unfair for me.

I don't know where you get your facts from. I've spoken to a number of leave supporters who are assuming a zero deal with the EU and still feel that it will be worth it. A lot of these same people would also wish that this was not necessary, their key concern being that the European project is a bad idea badly implemented and that is doomed. They just want out before it falls apart.

The single market was (is) a great idea but some over ambitious politicians couldn't stop themselves from buggering it up. Had there been fiscal parity across all the members then there may have been some prospect of success but the real disparity puts huge strain on the less well off nations - Greece is a good example. The inability (lack of desire) to reform is also a key driver for exiteers. Interestingly, when Germany and France were unable to meet the fiscal rules, they were amended, so maybe it depends on who you are 🙄

 

[Wulfthari]

hey, you had the third way - Bernie!!! 🙂 I would gess that most of Europeans would vote for him and most of Americans would not understand why 🙂

Quoting Fonzie: "I like Bernie. Even my bike likes Bernie".

I don't know where you get your facts from. I've spoken to a number of leave supporters who are assuming a zero deal with the EU and still feel that it will be worth it. A lot of these same people would also wish that this was not necessary, their key concern being that the European project is a bad idea badly implemented and that is doomed. They just want out before it falls apart.

I got that from the big debate that happened on the BBC where a conservative for leave said that since the UK is a big customer for German and French companies once out they should make pressure on their governments to allow free trade because it's in their interest as well.

Then some roboant declarations on the Fifth Economy in the World etc...