Wouter
Well-known
There´s an M8 for sale right now at newoldcamera.com, for under 990 euros. I'd buy it if I had the money. It comes with a year's warranty. This is the link:
http://www.newoldcamera.com/Scheda.aspx?Codice=NC3154
I have no relation with this shop neither have I ever bought from them. I look at their products every now and then, they have some interesting stuff and are generally reasonable with their prices.
http://www.newoldcamera.com/Scheda.aspx?Codice=NC3154
I have no relation with this shop neither have I ever bought from them. I look at their products every now and then, they have some interesting stuff and are generally reasonable with their prices.
willie_901
Veteran
Samuel,
I adored using the rangefinder I owned (Zeiss Ikon M) with M/LTM lenses. But when I decided to forgo film, I sold it all and abandoned the M platform forever. I have no regret. Right now there are a large number of excellent digital camera and lens platforms to choose from. And I found one that is completely compatible with the shooting style I used with the Zeiss Ikon.
If you enjoy photography primarily as a creative outlet, then non-rangefinder digital systems are available. If a traditional rangefinder focusing system is your overriding priority, your options are as limited as they were five years ago. To be clear, these are not mutually exclusive goals unless you are unable to afford a new or fully warranted digital rangefinder body. To be clear, I would never imply the primary concern of people who use digital rangefinders is not creative expression. It's just that they happen to have the resources (or risk tolerance) to be creative with the focusing system they prefer.
All brands of pre-owned digital cameras come with risk. Unless you know the seller well, you have no information about the camera's life. Computer circuity is more labile than the simpler electronics in film cameras (not to mention cameras with no electronics whatsoever).
Unlike a older high-quality vehicle where there are relatively inexpensive repair options, an older high-quality camera, the M8, can only be repaired by Leica. And as you know some parts can not be replaced.
I think you have three choices to use a mechanical, optical rangefinder for focusing a digital camera.
o save/invest money until you can afford a new Leica or a used model with a useful warranty
o buy the newest M 8.2 you can afford right now from the most reputable, trustworthy source you can find and accept the inherent risk; depending on your resources and patience, the risk could be high
o consider the Epson RD-1 following the strategy in item 2
I adored using the rangefinder I owned (Zeiss Ikon M) with M/LTM lenses. But when I decided to forgo film, I sold it all and abandoned the M platform forever. I have no regret. Right now there are a large number of excellent digital camera and lens platforms to choose from. And I found one that is completely compatible with the shooting style I used with the Zeiss Ikon.
If you enjoy photography primarily as a creative outlet, then non-rangefinder digital systems are available. If a traditional rangefinder focusing system is your overriding priority, your options are as limited as they were five years ago. To be clear, these are not mutually exclusive goals unless you are unable to afford a new or fully warranted digital rangefinder body. To be clear, I would never imply the primary concern of people who use digital rangefinders is not creative expression. It's just that they happen to have the resources (or risk tolerance) to be creative with the focusing system they prefer.
All brands of pre-owned digital cameras come with risk. Unless you know the seller well, you have no information about the camera's life. Computer circuity is more labile than the simpler electronics in film cameras (not to mention cameras with no electronics whatsoever).
Unlike a older high-quality vehicle where there are relatively inexpensive repair options, an older high-quality camera, the M8, can only be repaired by Leica. And as you know some parts can not be replaced.
I think you have three choices to use a mechanical, optical rangefinder for focusing a digital camera.
o save/invest money until you can afford a new Leica or a used model with a useful warranty
o buy the newest M 8.2 you can afford right now from the most reputable, trustworthy source you can find and accept the inherent risk; depending on your resources and patience, the risk could be high
o consider the Epson RD-1 following the strategy in item 2
pieter
Established
In some sense it's sad that we have an itch that in the digital realm can only be scratched by a Leica. Sad because they're expensive. Even the M8 is expensive considering the dangers of expensive repairs and considering the crop factor and the low mp.
But seriously the M8 is still an amazing camera, even with its limitations. It makes gorgeous crisp files which at base iso I like better than the M240.
But seriously the M8 is still an amazing camera, even with its limitations. It makes gorgeous crisp files which at base iso I like better than the M240.
Lss
Well-known
Unless you get a warranty, the newer-older game is rather pointless IMO. Age is not a very useful measure in assessing the condition of or risk related to a camera (M8 was released in 2006, M8.2 in 2008) nor is the shutter count unless going to either extreme (worn out vs. not tried). Testing is perhaps most telling.
hepcat
Former PH, USN
Yes, but Leica says that the new shutter is no more or less reliable than the original M8 shutter. It's merely more "quiet" with a lower top shutter speed; neither of which I personally find to be significant either way.
The main differences between the M8 and M8.2 are the difference in framing accuracy from one to two meters, the sapphire glass LCD cover, and the black paint vs. black chrome. And even at that, my very late 2008 production M8 anti-panda has black paint.
Samuel D
Established
Thanks for the huge response. You’ve given me much to think about.
To clarify, I don’t own any Leica lenses, so I’d need to buy at least one at the outset. I haven’t given lenses a great deal of thought yet. In fact, this whole idea is a bit embryonic. I’m only voicing it here because my wish to have a Leica has persisted for well over a decade, which might mean I should do something about it.
I like what Fujifilm and even Sony have been doing lately, but I’m really after a rangefinder camera, partly for quick and sure manual focus with short lenses. I’m also seeking lenses with broadly spaced depth-of-field marks and well populated distance scales – features that are basically extinct outside the world of rangefinders.
Why not buy an M6? Well, the thought has crossed my mind several times. I love and understand film, and I wish digital had not been invented. But it was invented, and on balance, I now prefer it. Does that make sense?
I enjoyed the pictures on your website, willie_901.
To clarify, I don’t own any Leica lenses, so I’d need to buy at least one at the outset. I haven’t given lenses a great deal of thought yet. In fact, this whole idea is a bit embryonic. I’m only voicing it here because my wish to have a Leica has persisted for well over a decade, which might mean I should do something about it.
I like what Fujifilm and even Sony have been doing lately, but I’m really after a rangefinder camera, partly for quick and sure manual focus with short lenses. I’m also seeking lenses with broadly spaced depth-of-field marks and well populated distance scales – features that are basically extinct outside the world of rangefinders.
Why not buy an M6? Well, the thought has crossed my mind several times. I love and understand film, and I wish digital had not been invented. But it was invented, and on balance, I now prefer it. Does that make sense?
I enjoyed the pictures on your website, willie_901.
alienmeatsack
Well-known
I don't know if it was suggested yet Samuel but have you tried to find a place that rents Leica gear that's in your part of the world?
You might also try to find a local with an M8 who'd meet up with you and let you have at it for a while in their company to see how it feels in your hands etc. Maybe find a local Leica dealer and chat with them about it. I don't know how they work there but I'd think they'd be helpful and possibly help you find the gear to borrow/rent or use in shop to get a feel for it if nothing else.
Might be someone here who could help too. This forum reaches all across the planet.
You might also try to find a local with an M8 who'd meet up with you and let you have at it for a while in their company to see how it feels in your hands etc. Maybe find a local Leica dealer and chat with them about it. I don't know how they work there but I'd think they'd be helpful and possibly help you find the gear to borrow/rent or use in shop to get a feel for it if nothing else.
Might be someone here who could help too. This forum reaches all across the planet.
rivercityrocker
Well-known
It sounds like you want a Leica. Buy an M8 (someone posted a link to a place with a guarantee, can't beat that). As someone else mentioned the price difference of the M8.2 is not worth it. I can't hear the difference in the shutter sound for the life of me.
In any case, my advice is to buy an M8 and a Voigtländer Nokton 35mm f/1.4. This was my go to kit on my M8. I find the combination to be just as good as my 50mm Summilux on my M9. The M8/35 Nokt combo shouldn't cost you more than $2500 USD, likely less (not sure what that works out to in whatever currency you're dealing in). That's not much more than a high-end DSLR camera body is going to cost you. If you like to shoot wider the Voigtländer Ultron 28mm f/2 is a 35mm equiv.
Trust me, you won't regret it.
Samuel D
Established
I haven’t, but I know there are several options along those lines. However, would I really need to do that? I know what an M6 is like. I’ve handled an M8, so I know it feels a little different: thicker, etc. But how different can it really be?
Earlier, doolittle also warned me against assuming the M8 would be very similar to the M6. Can anyone put words on the differences?
Clear advice, but I might regret it if the LCD fails and I end up with a paperweight! But tom.w.bn had a smart solution for that which hadn’t occurred to me:
It’s tempting. Perhaps I’ll wait for the new year and then decide definitively.
doolittle
Well-known
I'll try
M6 / M8.
M6: solid, but not too weighty. Fantastic ergonomics. Shutter pressure and action just right, lovely shutter sound. Satisfying winder.
M8: ergonomics not as good. Possibly needs thumbs-up or half case (I went for the half-case as does a good job of muffling shutter sound).
M6: ready to shoot at a heart-beat. M8: need to carefully switch the on/off button to on, and make sure not to set to self-timer by mistake. M6: feeling of reliability, know camera will work no matter M8: slight worry in back of mind e.g. if its too cold outside, will battery drain. Feeling that should bring a back up camera, preferably the M6!
M6: pack a few rolls of film, possibly a spare battery and you are good to go M8: don't forget the charger, a spare battery, SD-Cards
M6: framelines are reasonably nice M8:need to get used to tighter framelines due to crop factor (e.g. 50mm lens box is that bit tighter as showing the cropped view). Also the 24mm/35mm framelines are very cluttered looking/distracting to my eye.
In fairness, a lot of the above is a film vs digital thing.
The M8 has a lot of good points: files are sharp and pleasant right out of the camera, very little post-processing needed. Nice rangefinder focusing. Shutter still nicer than many dSLRs. Nice bright optical viewfinder. Great IR camera, and B&W camera. Nice colours which do have a different look compared to many other digital cameras.
It and the Epson definitely are the cheapest entry points to digital rangefinder photography.
hepcat
Former PH, USN
I'll try
M6 / M8.
...
In fairness, a lot of the above is a film vs digital thing.
...
I have to say that most of those things that you don't care for are common to any digital camera of any style.
I have to agree with RiverCityRocker... The M8 is a good camera and a good buy right now. It will give you 95% of the experience you had with the M6 (I've used film M bodies for years and currently have an M4-P in addition to my M8 and M9-P.) The few problems experienced are well known. Many M8s have been heavily used with no issues at all. What we hear about here are the ones that were problematic. I can't say for sure that they're less, as, or more reliable than any other cameras, but I haven't experienced any issues with mine... yet.
rivercityrocker
Well-known
I wouldn't be overly concerned with LCD going out. I treat my cameras really rough and my LCD has held up fine.
I had to replace the the Schott glass protector once because I cracked it. And when I was pulling the old one off I accidentally yanked the actual LCD glass out of the camera, but I slapped some Gorilla Glue on it and it's working like a champ.
I doubt you'll be 1/2 as mean to your camera as I am to mine. Someone at the camera store the other day berated me for riding my motorcycle with my M9-P hanging from the strap behind me! Cameras are tougher than you think.
I had to replace the the Schott glass protector once because I cracked it. And when I was pulling the old one off I accidentally yanked the actual LCD glass out of the camera, but I slapped some Gorilla Glue on it and it's working like a champ.
I doubt you'll be 1/2 as mean to your camera as I am to mine. Someone at the camera store the other day berated me for riding my motorcycle with my M9-P hanging from the strap behind me! Cameras are tougher than you think.
hepcat
Former PH, USN
I rode around most of the overnight towns on RAGBRAI this year with the M9-P dangling from a strap on my side while I was shooting from my bicycle We both survived it just fine.
Pablito
coco frío
Paupers with Leicas. What a world!
rivercityrocker
Well-known
Sooty_1
Drive-by shooter
I wasn't a pauper until I got an M8 and some new glass!
Seriously though, the M8 is great, and is usually at least half the M9 price. Long in the tooth - yes, but so are my M3 and M4. Both still work perfectly. If you find a decent M8 at a decent price, buy it - you won't regret it, but it is maybe not worth bankrupting yourself, when a film M will give you the tactile experience you once felt with your M6 for less money.
I cannot personally compare the M8 with newer bodies as I have never (extensively) used them, but many on here will testify to the M8's endurance and picture quality. I can only say that I love mine, and that it might be better to invest in good glass rather than splash out on a more expensive body, which will probably not give you a significant increase in image quality unless you are pushing the envelope on the camera's abilities.
Nick
Seriously though, the M8 is great, and is usually at least half the M9 price. Long in the tooth - yes, but so are my M3 and M4. Both still work perfectly. If you find a decent M8 at a decent price, buy it - you won't regret it, but it is maybe not worth bankrupting yourself, when a film M will give you the tactile experience you once felt with your M6 for less money.
I cannot personally compare the M8 with newer bodies as I have never (extensively) used them, but many on here will testify to the M8's endurance and picture quality. I can only say that I love mine, and that it might be better to invest in good glass rather than splash out on a more expensive body, which will probably not give you a significant increase in image quality unless you are pushing the envelope on the camera's abilities.
Nick
peterm1
Veteran
For a long time I did not get on well with my M8.
Then I realised that I was really struggling to focus. My eyes have gone downhill over the past few years and I knew this to be a factor. So I bought an eyepiece magnifier and an infinitely variable diopter adjustment. Both helped but not enough.
Some tests were carried out by me and I found that the camera was also backfocusing rather severely with all my lenses (Leica M, Leica LTM with adaptor and third party lenses) .
How this happened is a mystery as I am (a) sure it was focussing OK when I bought it (b) have not dropped or even bumped the camera and (C) never fiddled with the rangefinder. (BTW the web is full ot forum thread with people discussing this issue with digital Leica M's. There seems to be an issue but no one really agrees on what the cause is as the rangefinder is said to be identical to the film cameras. I should know as I spend hours and hours reading posts with people complaining about and discussing this in an effort to try to understand what went wrong). Some people claim that due to inherent sensitivities of digital sensors you just have to be prepared to outlay the cost of recalibrating your rangefinder every so often.
In any event this led to stint in camera hospital to have the rangfinder recalibrated. This helped but I still found that I was struggling to focus the bloody thing. I then realised that the vertical adjustment of the rangefinder was out of whack. Which meant it was hard to tell when it was in focus or out of focus. This made focusing nothing better than a guess. So I read up on how to fix this myself (as no one locally has the tools needed) and bought on eBay the special tool needed to turn the thingummy bob that adjusts the widget to recalibarate the whatsit. (Good old Leica - they went from a system where the necessary adjustment could be made using a miniature screwdriver to one that needs a special tool that they do not sell except to Leica trained techs - presumably to keep work coming in for struggling and poor Leica technicians). But while its a delicate task at the end of the day all it involves is turning a screw carefully to bring the vertical adjustment back into alignment - if you have the tool! Thank God for eBay and for the skill of Chinese in copying stuff is all I say.
Now finally, at last after a couple of years (yes I said years) I am at long, long, long last getting along much much better with the camera and its foibles.
This has taught me (a) Leica Ms are "old technology" - technology that is mechanical, highly sensitive and unless it is in perfect alignment is just about impossible to use properly (b) there is no such thing as a cheap Leica M as even if you get it cheap the chances are it will need ongoing care and attention and (b) even so they are still a pleasure to use. But how much easier is something like a Sony NEX with focus peaking and an adapter to take Leica glass. I can tell you how much - LOTS!
Dont go into this thinking that Leica Ms are a cheap option by any means. You may be disappointed unless you can afford the money to keep the damn thing working well. But if it does work well its a joy to use.
PS check the rangefinder function before you buy or you might be up for a $100 or more in servicing costs before you start with any new camera.
Then I realised that I was really struggling to focus. My eyes have gone downhill over the past few years and I knew this to be a factor. So I bought an eyepiece magnifier and an infinitely variable diopter adjustment. Both helped but not enough.
Some tests were carried out by me and I found that the camera was also backfocusing rather severely with all my lenses (Leica M, Leica LTM with adaptor and third party lenses) .
How this happened is a mystery as I am (a) sure it was focussing OK when I bought it (b) have not dropped or even bumped the camera and (C) never fiddled with the rangefinder. (BTW the web is full ot forum thread with people discussing this issue with digital Leica M's. There seems to be an issue but no one really agrees on what the cause is as the rangefinder is said to be identical to the film cameras. I should know as I spend hours and hours reading posts with people complaining about and discussing this in an effort to try to understand what went wrong). Some people claim that due to inherent sensitivities of digital sensors you just have to be prepared to outlay the cost of recalibrating your rangefinder every so often.
In any event this led to stint in camera hospital to have the rangfinder recalibrated. This helped but I still found that I was struggling to focus the bloody thing. I then realised that the vertical adjustment of the rangefinder was out of whack. Which meant it was hard to tell when it was in focus or out of focus. This made focusing nothing better than a guess. So I read up on how to fix this myself (as no one locally has the tools needed) and bought on eBay the special tool needed to turn the thingummy bob that adjusts the widget to recalibarate the whatsit. (Good old Leica - they went from a system where the necessary adjustment could be made using a miniature screwdriver to one that needs a special tool that they do not sell except to Leica trained techs - presumably to keep work coming in for struggling and poor Leica technicians). But while its a delicate task at the end of the day all it involves is turning a screw carefully to bring the vertical adjustment back into alignment - if you have the tool! Thank God for eBay and for the skill of Chinese in copying stuff is all I say.
Now finally, at last after a couple of years (yes I said years) I am at long, long, long last getting along much much better with the camera and its foibles.
This has taught me (a) Leica Ms are "old technology" - technology that is mechanical, highly sensitive and unless it is in perfect alignment is just about impossible to use properly (b) there is no such thing as a cheap Leica M as even if you get it cheap the chances are it will need ongoing care and attention and (b) even so they are still a pleasure to use. But how much easier is something like a Sony NEX with focus peaking and an adapter to take Leica glass. I can tell you how much - LOTS!
Dont go into this thinking that Leica Ms are a cheap option by any means. You may be disappointed unless you can afford the money to keep the damn thing working well. But if it does work well its a joy to use.
PS check the rangefinder function before you buy or you might be up for a $100 or more in servicing costs before you start with any new camera.
twopointeight
Well-known
I had an M8.2 for a couple of years. Used it professionmally on one project and daily shooting for awhile. The limitation on high ISO was a problem for me. The threat of an expensive repair bill always loomed, plus the waiting time that Leica is known for if service is required. I moved on to the Fuji Xpro1 and the x100s. Much, much happier, especially with the Xpro1. I just shot for a month on assignmemnt in Thailand and Japan with only the Xpro1, 3 lenses and the x100s. For me, Fuji is the way to go for editorial travel, documentary, and everyday shooting. Canon for commercial work like architecture.
swoop
Well-known
Just save up for the M9. It's essentially the digital equivalent of film and if you're happy with film the M9 will suit you for at least a decade.