Huss
Veteran
The demo video leaves questions... how is the camera + lens used with it? Why dont they show that? How do they maintain planarity between camera back and film? How is this better than the $150 Nikon ES-2 which is super easy,quick and maintains planarity as it is directly attached to the lens?
brbo
Well-known
Well, you know the answers
They make it like holding the film was the only thing holding people back with camera scanning.And how do you insert a single frame?
PRJ
Another Day in Paradise
The price cracks me up. And they say it is going to be more after the kickstarter! Kinda pricey for a simple box with gears inside. And I seriously doubt it will hold the film flat enough.
I think the best solution I've seen so far was from that Hamish guy at 35mmc (I think). I don't remember what it was called, but a piece of frosted plexi with strips to hold down the neg. Seemed like an elegant simple solution. I wonder what happened with those.
I think the best solution I've seen so far was from that Hamish guy at 35mmc (I think). I don't remember what it was called, but a piece of frosted plexi with strips to hold down the neg. Seemed like an elegant simple solution. I wonder what happened with those.
frank-grumman
Well-known
PRJ, that'd be Hamish Gill, publisher of that site. He appears to have carried out a review of the Kickstarter unit. I'm uniformly wary of Kickstarter's, given there is no guarantee items proposed for the market will ever get there. And not to mention there is no guarantee that whatever funds may have been contributed will ever get back to the donor, at least if I read correctly Kick's TOS. I may however be wrong on that, and if so, in advance, I stand corrected.
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
Here's a general good practice for converting color-negatives with Negative Lab Pro. I suspect this tip is also valid for other conversion methods.
A number of users have reported getting unwanted casts across their frame. Most of the examples have a bright element in the image (bright sky, lit match, the sun, specular reflection). NLP tries to make that element clean white, and this may throw things off throughout the image. Remedy: Crop to exclude such elements, convert and adjust to taste, click Apply, then re-crop to desired framing. By doing so, the NLP image analysis considers only the areas within the crop.
Similarly, if there is no black in the image area, include a bit of the unexposed film and set "Border" to zero. This gives NLP something to make black.
Other points:
- Use a high °K and high CRI light source
- You can ETTR, but stay well below the top (non-linearities arise near the top)
- Avoid vignetting (darker areas around edge of cam-scan file, become brighter in converted positive image). Check that your illumination is even.
- Watch exposure and stray light. Mask around the image area. If using a long exposure, darken the room to eliminate room light reflections off the film.
There is an active "Group" for "Negative Lab Pro" on Facebook. Similarly, an active group for "Digitizing Film with a Digital Camera".
A number of users have reported getting unwanted casts across their frame. Most of the examples have a bright element in the image (bright sky, lit match, the sun, specular reflection). NLP tries to make that element clean white, and this may throw things off throughout the image. Remedy: Crop to exclude such elements, convert and adjust to taste, click Apply, then re-crop to desired framing. By doing so, the NLP image analysis considers only the areas within the crop.
Similarly, if there is no black in the image area, include a bit of the unexposed film and set "Border" to zero. This gives NLP something to make black.
Other points:
- Use a high °K and high CRI light source
- You can ETTR, but stay well below the top (non-linearities arise near the top)
- Avoid vignetting (darker areas around edge of cam-scan file, become brighter in converted positive image). Check that your illumination is even.
- Watch exposure and stray light. Mask around the image area. If using a long exposure, darken the room to eliminate room light reflections off the film.
There is an active "Group" for "Negative Lab Pro" on Facebook. Similarly, an active group for "Digitizing Film with a Digital Camera".
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
I've done a test of a number of back-light sources for camera-scanning of color negatives, doing the conversions in Negative Lab Pro, my current go-to.
Results and comments are in "Negative Lab Pro" group on Facebook (ask to join) or at this link where anyone can read: Forums.NegativeLabPro.com (probably have to scroll down to the bottom of this page)
A couple of top-line comments:
- Light panels can be good (e.g. Kaiser).
- Current iPhones and iPad are excellent, bringing out very vivid reds
- Avoid the cheap (e.g. $30) light panels.
- Video lights are all good and give you much shorter exposures than light panels
Hope this is helpful.
Results and comments are in "Negative Lab Pro" group on Facebook (ask to join) or at this link where anyone can read: Forums.NegativeLabPro.com (probably have to scroll down to the bottom of this page)
A couple of top-line comments:
- Light panels can be good (e.g. Kaiser).
- Current iPhones and iPad are excellent, bringing out very vivid reds
- Avoid the cheap (e.g. $30) light panels.
- Video lights are all good and give you much shorter exposures than light panels
Hope this is helpful.
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
Interesting piece of gear. Expensive. Built like a tank and precise. Film aperture just slightly generous, so you get a little bit of unexposed film. The path bends the film to improve flatness.
I like that it's heavy; once in place, it won't move around.
Longer the strip of film the better. Four frames is probably a practical minimum; no way I can see to get a single frame into position and back out.
Michalm
Well-known
Raw Therapee
Raw Therapee
I'm regular user of Raw therapee , it turns out that latest version offers negative tool , has any one tried that yet?
It requires Raw capture of negative image, it does basic conversion with orange mask automaticaly removed.
Raw Therapee
I'm regular user of Raw therapee , it turns out that latest version offers negative tool , has any one tried that yet?
It requires Raw capture of negative image, it does basic conversion with orange mask automaticaly removed.
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
Friends -
While I've gone over entirely to using Negative Lab Pro and LR, I watch for alternative methods. This just popped up in the active FB group "Digitizing film with a digital camera."
Scripts and methods for converting cam-scan of color-neg with ImageMagick:
Fred's scripts #Negative2Positive
Jaz99's #negfix8
Photrio thread with Simple Film Lab's Adrian Bacon comments:
While I've gone over entirely to using Negative Lab Pro and LR, I watch for alternative methods. This just popped up in the active FB group "Digitizing film with a digital camera."
Scripts and methods for converting cam-scan of color-neg with ImageMagick:
Fred's scripts #Negative2Positive
Jaz99's #negfix8
Photrio thread with Simple Film Lab's Adrian Bacon comments:
alaindeloc
Newbie
Hi,
I just developed a plugin for Photoshop for negative inversion, directly from RAW, completely avoiding also Adobe Camera Raw. Seems there are many threads here .. where should post that?
I just developed a plugin for Photoshop for negative inversion, directly from RAW, completely avoiding also Adobe Camera Raw. Seems there are many threads here .. where should post that?
Huss
Veteran
Jeez that photrio thread is a soul crusher.
Love comments like this:
“You are selling your 35mm frames very short if you think a single shot DSLR grab will do them full justice.”
And the guy who says the colour of NLP is awful. And the other guy who says his proprietary software is the best, points to his media page, where I see two non descript colour images.
I’m not saying that there aren’t alternatives to NLP but I love it, it gives great results, is updated occasionally, and is super easy to use. it’s made me money.
Use whatever makes you happy.
Huss
Veteran
Start a new thread in this forum.
frank-grumman
Well-known
FWIW, mid January I’ll post a review of the Negative Supply rig, having decided to pull the trigger as it were, and buy the whole rig. NS is in Philly, I’m in Philly (at least for the moment), so shipping shouldn’t take forever LOL LOL All I need now is Lab-Box, and I’ll be good to go on my own.
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
Alain, right here would be a fine place to post your plugin. Description, example, any how-to information, and links.
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
Time flies. It's been 27 months since I started this thread, and lots has happened. Here's a new summary.
My appreciation to all of you who have contributed methods, examples, and tools.
New summary, key things I've concluded about camera-scans of color negatives:
1. Illuminate the negative with a high CRI source (incandescent, LED, or flash), 5500°K best.
2. Shoot RAW with a good macro lens and good macro technique (alignment, film flat, best aperture)
3. Getting enough resolution is easy, color and tonality more challenging, but there are effective methods and tools. With methods below, we get automatic conversions of the quality we used to get from mini-labs.
4. All the automated methods involve some image analysis. This works best when image has a full range of tones, and no areas that "mess up" the analysis. Good options: Crop to the area you want analyzed, convert, then re-crop to desired image area, or analyze one frame, apply results to other frames.
At this point, my preferred approach is Negative Lab Pro and Lightroom:
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot RAW, import into Lightroom
- Spot, flip image if necessary
- Make virtual copy
- Convert virtual copy w/Negative Lab Pro, adjust with NLP's controls, sync settings as desired
- Another virtual copy if you want to experiment with other NLP options
- Export as desired. Or make TIFF file for more adjustments in LR or PS
- Links Negative Lab Pro, also a Facebook group. See other threads here on RFF.
- Note: Now works well with film-scanners (scan as positive, convert w/NLP, can use IR dust/scratch removal)
Adrian Gabor's CNMY Film Inversion in Photoshop
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot raw, as above
- Open in PS, minor adjustments, histogram (centered, wide, but not to the edges)
- Run the action, adjust to taste
- Links CNMY Film Inversion, also Facebook group.
- Note: Also works well with film-scanners
These scripts and methods for converting cam-scan of color-neg with ImageMagick:
- Fred's scripts #Negative2Positive
- Jaz99's #negfix8
Recently [early 2019] a number of posts on other forums report good results inverting in Capture One.
[ Remainder of text below from Nov 2017 ]
Minimalist approach:
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot raw, open in Photoshop or Lightroom
- Levels adjustment to give a good histogram (centered, wide, but not to the edges)
- Invert the image with Curves Adj Layer
- Put a big bend in the inversion curve till tonality is about right, see Post #68
- Add an "auto" adjustment (e.g. Curves... Option-Auto... Snap Neutral Midtones)
Better Color:
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot raw, open in Photoshop
- Levels adjustment to give a good histogram (centered, not to the edges)
- Invert the image with Jack Jzagaja's curve (see Post #8), or apply ColorPerfect (ColorNEG option)
- Add an "auto" adjustment
Very Good Color Method #1 (via Photoshop)
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot raw
- Use MakeTiff or dcraw to create linear tiff with no adjustments (will look very dark)
- Open in Photoshop and apply ColorPerfect (ColorNeg, film type, clipping, gray point, perhaps +sat)
- Add a Photoshop "auto" adjustment
Very Good Color Method #2 (via VueScan)
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot raw
- Use MakeTiff or dcraw to create linear tiff with no adjustments (will look very dark)
- Launch VueScan. Input from file. Select options (film type, check clipping, gray point)
- Select destination & file type, then hit "Scan" to process the image
- Adjust in program of your choice
- (Silverfast reportedly can do the same thing.)
Notes:
- MakeTiff is included with ColorPerfect, download separately to try it
- DCraw is free, but it's a command-line program, no easy user interface
- They do the same thing, results are a little different
- The DCRaw command: dcraw -v -w -H 0 -o 0 -q 3 -4 -T fileName
- ColorNeg settings: FilmType, ShadowClip 1.0, HighlightClip 0.25 250, rest to taste
Comments?
My appreciation to all of you who have contributed methods, examples, and tools.
New summary, key things I've concluded about camera-scans of color negatives:
1. Illuminate the negative with a high CRI source (incandescent, LED, or flash), 5500°K best.
2. Shoot RAW with a good macro lens and good macro technique (alignment, film flat, best aperture)
3. Getting enough resolution is easy, color and tonality more challenging, but there are effective methods and tools. With methods below, we get automatic conversions of the quality we used to get from mini-labs.
4. All the automated methods involve some image analysis. This works best when image has a full range of tones, and no areas that "mess up" the analysis. Good options: Crop to the area you want analyzed, convert, then re-crop to desired image area, or analyze one frame, apply results to other frames.
At this point, my preferred approach is Negative Lab Pro and Lightroom:
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot RAW, import into Lightroom
- Spot, flip image if necessary
- Make virtual copy
- Convert virtual copy w/Negative Lab Pro, adjust with NLP's controls, sync settings as desired
- Another virtual copy if you want to experiment with other NLP options
- Export as desired. Or make TIFF file for more adjustments in LR or PS
- Links Negative Lab Pro, also a Facebook group. See other threads here on RFF.
- Note: Now works well with film-scanners (scan as positive, convert w/NLP, can use IR dust/scratch removal)
Adrian Gabor's CNMY Film Inversion in Photoshop
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot raw, as above
- Open in PS, minor adjustments, histogram (centered, wide, but not to the edges)
- Run the action, adjust to taste
- Links CNMY Film Inversion, also Facebook group.
- Note: Also works well with film-scanners
These scripts and methods for converting cam-scan of color-neg with ImageMagick:
- Fred's scripts #Negative2Positive
- Jaz99's #negfix8
Recently [early 2019] a number of posts on other forums report good results inverting in Capture One.
[ Remainder of text below from Nov 2017 ]
Minimalist approach:
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot raw, open in Photoshop or Lightroom
- Levels adjustment to give a good histogram (centered, wide, but not to the edges)
- Invert the image with Curves Adj Layer
- Put a big bend in the inversion curve till tonality is about right, see Post #68
- Add an "auto" adjustment (e.g. Curves... Option-Auto... Snap Neutral Midtones)
Better Color:
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot raw, open in Photoshop
- Levels adjustment to give a good histogram (centered, not to the edges)
- Invert the image with Jack Jzagaja's curve (see Post #8), or apply ColorPerfect (ColorNEG option)
- Add an "auto" adjustment
Very Good Color Method #1 (via Photoshop)
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot raw
- Use MakeTiff or dcraw to create linear tiff with no adjustments (will look very dark)
- Open in Photoshop and apply ColorPerfect (ColorNeg, film type, clipping, gray point, perhaps +sat)
- Add a Photoshop "auto" adjustment
Very Good Color Method #2 (via VueScan)
- Camera scan capture of the negative, shoot raw
- Use MakeTiff or dcraw to create linear tiff with no adjustments (will look very dark)
- Launch VueScan. Input from file. Select options (film type, check clipping, gray point)
- Select destination & file type, then hit "Scan" to process the image
- Adjust in program of your choice
- (Silverfast reportedly can do the same thing.)
Notes:
- MakeTiff is included with ColorPerfect, download separately to try it
- DCraw is free, but it's a command-line program, no easy user interface
- They do the same thing, results are a little different
- The DCRaw command: dcraw -v -w -H 0 -o 0 -q 3 -4 -T fileName
- ColorNeg settings: FilmType, ShadowClip 1.0, HighlightClip 0.25 250, rest to taste
Comments?
madNbad
Well-known
Richard, I would like to thank you and all of the others that have shared your experience with camera scanning. Both the links to equipment and software in addition to posting examples have certainly helped me. Once the roll of film is dry and if I have done my part to expose properly in the first place, it takes less than a half hour from initial scan to finished image for a full roll of thirty-six. The images are superior to what I had been paying a lab to do and often had to make adjustments anyway, not to mention it's many time faster than the Plustek.
DrTebi
Slide Lover
Great information in this thread.
I have one question though. You mentioned at some point that you used a Solux 4700°K bulb as a light source. I too have that bulb and always liked the colors I got with it, better than my LED light sources.
My problem however has been that I couldn't figure out how to diffuse the light properly. It worked OK for 35mm, but for medium format negatives I always had a vignetting effect in the corners from the light-falloff.
Could you explain, or possibly post an image of how you set up this bulb with your camera scanner?
I have one question though. You mentioned at some point that you used a Solux 4700°K bulb as a light source. I too have that bulb and always liked the colors I got with it, better than my LED light sources.
My problem however has been that I couldn't figure out how to diffuse the light properly. It worked OK for 35mm, but for medium format negatives I always had a vignetting effect in the corners from the light-falloff.
Could you explain, or possibly post an image of how you set up this bulb with your camera scanner?
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
I have used this bulb only for 35mm, positioning the bulb far enough back that the even center area of light is illuminating the 35mm-sized diffuser.
Don't know how to apply this bulb for MF. Frankly, I would start with an LED panel or video light for MF. Or flash. These give excellent results with color-neg as well as chromes.
DrTebi
Slide Lover
I assume you were not shooting from the top, as with a copy stand? That's what I tried to do, and my approach was to put the Solux bulb into a box, pointing it horizontally onto a diffusing miror, and then up through a hole in the box.... worked well for 35mm, but as mentioned, not diffused evenly for MF.
Anyway, I have long moved on to LEDs. I bought strips from YUJILED, and made my own ca. 4x4 inch LED pad with it. In my opinion these LEDs are very good when it comes to color accuracy (CRI).
Another thing that helped a lot was to use a 80A blue filter. This helped a lot to reduce the red channel... it doesn't seem to work with all negatives the same, but it did make the conversion a lot easier. Any thoughts on that? I know someone has suggested that before, not sure if it was here or on the Large Format Photography forum.
ColSebastianMoran
( IRL Richard Karash )
This is a new one on me. 80A is designed to adjust color when exposing daylight film in tungsten light. Raises apparent color temperature. Thanks for posting this. How are you then converting the color-negative file?
I did experiment with DiChro filters trying to neutralize the orange mask in camera-scan exposure. 50C+15M on my Beseler Dual Mode Duplicator, with flash for lighting, did pretty much neutralize the mask. I abandoned this; I think NLP with flash or video light gives me better colors without the DiChro filters.