Camera store visit has left me confused about Leica and Zeiss

Camera: your choice. A better vf is a good point to consider.
Lenses: CZ lenses are as good as Leica lenses, and they cost much less. Your choice again.
 
Having been a sales person for about nine months, there are but a few major rules that are practiced by many salesmen. Two of them are:
Sell what is available today. If you do not have it, your customer does not want it. Second, sell what makes you the most money. You are there to make money and you only sell good stuff.

Now, you got a POOR one, there are great ones out there. I’ve known a few, Jim at Ken Hansen in NYC, Ernie at LeBeau in Rochester.

Both are great cameras in their own right. Keep reading through the threads here, there are treasures of knowledge, LOTs of great people who have been here for years. A poormans Leica is a number of FSU (Former Soviet Union) cameras. They are fun, they are good, but they are not as great as a Leica.

IMHO, the Nikon F is every bit as good as a Leica. It’s different, it’s an SLR, but F is a classic. It was made in Japan as was my Nikon S3 2000. I’m lucky enough to have two Leica Ms (M6, M4-P) and there is something about the way the fit in your hand, the way they become part of you. But the best for one person is not the best for everyone. Why did I buy a Honda Fit (Jazz in most of the world) rather than an BMW 325? The 325 is a much better car, but for me, the Fit does everything I want and I have money left over for food.

Look at the Bessas, they are a wonderful wonder cameras at a great price. The ZI and M7 are a step or two above them, they Bessas are just fun cameras. You can buy a R3A and a R4A and some great glass (ZI or CV) for the money you are looking at on the Leica M7.

B2 (;->
 
The sales person is full of crap!

Forty years shooting professionally with Leicas and currently own 6 M's which includes 3 MP's. I have set of Leica glass and set of Zeiss with a couple of CV's thrown in. I also have a ZI tha tmy wife gave me lat year.

My opinion, if I were buying RF's with the knowledge and choice I have today I would most likely own 6 ZI's and one M. I thas nothing to do with price and all to do with ergonomics, new age materials, construction, higher sync speed from the QUIET metal shutter, weight and superior RF/VF. No question I would own all Zeiss and CV glass with a couple of exceptions, the 75 summilux and asph 50 summilux.

I've had no problems from any Zeiss products and have had 4 Leica lenses develope major mechanical problems and one of my new MP's at leica now with shutter problems and a loose ISO dial. IMO todays Leica construction is not that great compared to older pre mid 70's Leica M's and lenses. I work each of my cameras equally hard and shoot a great number of rolls a year through them.

Like many salesmen he's full of himself and has no real experience.
 
I was once in an upmarket gents' outfitters, and the assistant noticed my M4. "Beautiful camera, those Leicas, sir, best in the world."

"It's good fun," I reply.

"Is that a Leica lens?"

"No, it's a Voigtlander. It's rarely off the camera."

"You should put a Leica lens on it. They're the the best in the world, much better than anything made in Japan."

"Do you do photography?"

"No."

So why do I have an M4? Simple. At the time, secondhand Bessas weren't that common and were really expensive, the Zeiss Ikon hadn't been invented, and I found an M4 that was only a a few hundred more than the Bessa. Trade-in meant I got it for £150, so I keep telling myself... ;)


Most 'Leica' photographers run a mixed bag. It's all, so far as I can tell, good stuff. Some of it's really, really good, and you pay for it. I gather that Lee Friedlander has shot with a Hexar RF, so if it's good enough for him... And even if you were rich and thought nothing could hold a candle to Leica, you'd probably have the Voigtlander 15 instead of the Zeiss or Leica 14-16-18 or whatever if you didn't have much call for that focal length.

And shutter noise? Different sounds, but not especially more obtrusive. In street noise, all much of a muchness. In a quiet room, you'll hear any of them. And Leica Ms quiet? Try putting an M4 on self-timer and 1s. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ - CLICK - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz - CLICK - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. :eek: Give me a Zeiss Ikon any day.

There's a lot of mystique about Leica, and if you're thinking about a Leica, it's hard to shake off.

Really, poor man's Leica. Anyone would think we were talking about an old Praktica SLR with a $5 lens on it. (Sometimes I wish I'd kept the one I found in a charity shop, but I just had to have something better, didn't I? :bang:)
 
Wow thank you all for all the great advice. I’ve always wanted to own a Leica since I worked in a camera store back in 1982 we had tons of used ones.
I could have purchased an M3 in great condition for a few hundred dollars then, but I had different needs at the time.
I knew this guy was blowing smoke, but I was a little caught off guard much like watching a shell game.
I’ve seen M7’s selling used for about $1800 maybe that’s how I should go, but after reading some comments maybe I’ll look at a nice used M3.
I need to reacquaint myself with the M3 and see if I like the way it feels, for me I just need a tool that works and gets out of the way and lets me focus rapidly.
Not sure why people don’t like the M6, but it doesn’t seem to get much respect, is it not built as well?
I found this ad locally and was wondering if this would be worth looking at.
“Leica M6 TTL .085 body in like new condition. Comes with original box, papers, etc. I bought it new at Bob Davis Camera a few years ago and have only used it a few times. It even still has the original plastic covering on the bottom plate. $1200.”

Again thank you all for your wonderful advice and I figured that the combined knowledge of everyone here would answer these question and debunk this salesman.
 
I love my M6 classic and think it holds its own against any other M. Everyone has their favorite as everyones hands, needs and desires are different.

B2 (;->
 
FrankS said:
Just remember that you were talking to a salesman! :)
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Exactly!

An M6TTL is a mechanical camera. The M7 and ZI are aperture priority automatics with a manual override if you want it. The M6TTL was my first Leica and I loved it dearly until I tried an M7. The addition of automatic exposure is just a wonderful thing. :D If the ZIs had been oround when I bought my M7s I would have been sorely tempted. I have tried one and I like that VF a lot.
 
I'd go back to that same store and really spend some time handling both cameras. Seems like the salesman will be happy to let you really inspect them. Compare the VF, load some films, give them both a good once over. It really does come down to the one that feels better to the eye and hand. When you've decided on the body follow the advice of Magus and shop elsewhere. I'll chime in for Popflash as a great outfit to do business with.

As to lenses I shoot Leica, Zeiss & Rollei glass on my M's. All deliver wonderful images. Again the feel of them in the hand becomes one of the determining factors unless you have definite needs that only one or two lenses can fill.
 
Zeiss lenses seem to be equal but with a different "look" to the image.

Both are very nice images. The lens mechanics of both are not what Leica used to be. Leica is now using glue instead of set screws and that sort of thing. There are far more reported problems with Leica lenses than ever before and Zeiss is not imune either.

Now if they just had a body for the glass which has always been a Zeiss problem. The current may have a better viewfinder, but the insides are perhaps upgraded CV bodies at best, same as at worst. Leica bodies are tested and designed to work for hundreds of thousands of exposures. Zeiss design specs are "secret", I know as I have asked. Leica is proud of theirs and advertizes them.
 
I have spent many years as a photo salesman,and I can tell you that you were being 'steered' toward the preferred sale at that store, whether because of brand bias or commission, it doesn't matter. Next time you go to that store, talk to a different salesperson, things may be different.

Best camera to buy? Only you will be able to determine that. Take the advice of many of the previous posters and handle, try out, or rent these cameras before buying anything. Buy the camera that feels best in your hands, that you can operate intuitively, that does the job that YOU need it to do. Buying a super expensive anything on specs or popular opinion might leave you disappointed in your purchase, leading you to trade it at a financial loss, or worse, not use it.

If you decide on an M7, be aware that mint used ones are going for a grand less than if you buy new. Let someone else take the financial hit.

P.S. An FSU RF is the real 'poor man's Leica'. My old boss was a Zeiss man, he would have taken offence at the salesman's remarks...
 
mllanos1111 said:
I’ve seen M7’s selling used for about $1800 maybe that’s how I should go, but after reading some comments maybe I’ll look at a nice used M3.
I need to reacquaint myself with the M3 and see if I like the way it feels, for me I just need a tool that works and gets out of the way and lets me focus rapidly.
Not sure why people don’t like the M6, but it doesn’t seem to get much respect, is it not built as well?
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Remember the M3 VF doesn't cover 35 or 28 or 25 mm. And always shows the fat 50 mm lines, even if you have a 90 or 135 mounted.

Regarding the M6 - don't worry. It's an excellent mechanical camera, with the advantage of a built-in meter. So, if you're stuck in Outer Mongolia for several years, and forgot to bring any spare button cells with you, or if after WWIII you can't find batteries any more - your camera will still work. Buying and developing film may be a problem though.

“Leica M6 TTL .085 body in like new condition. Comes with original box, papers, etc. I bought it new at Bob Davis Camera a few years ago and have only used it a few times. It even still has the original plastic covering on the bottom plate. $1200.”
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Hey! Those original plastic coverings on the bottom are really rare! Most people just throw them away or :eek: scratch them! If you ever get a new camera, best to cover the protective covering with some more protective covering.

colin
 
mfunnell said:
Tony is a great guy and goes out of his way to provide great service ...Mike
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I agree. Tony will bend over backwards to make you happy. Make your decision and contact him for your purchase - he sells both Zeiss and Leica gear (www.popflash.com). In addition to great service, he will give you non-nonsense straight answers to your "comparative" questions.
 
Pablito said:
A camera store that will have in stock and let you handle the Zeiss Ikon and Leica cameras....and maybe a Bessa....NEAR IMPOSSIBLE to find. Maybe in LA or NYC. Nowhere else in the WORLD!!! (Maybe Hong Kong or Tokyo??....London???)
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Add Rotterdam(at least two stores), the Hague and Amsterdam.

Cheers,

Michiel Fokkema
 
colinh said:
...Hey! Those original plastic coverings on the bottom are really rare! Most people just throw them away or :eek: scratch them! If you ever get a new camera, best to cover the protective covering with some more protective covering.

colin
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Darn. I put mine in protective sleeves after I pulled them off the cameras, thought that would be the safest thing for them.
 
Hmm... I agree with some of the others. Say the salesman makes 5% commission on all sales. He probably doesn't but just for the sake of arguement. 5% of 1200 is $60. 5% of 4000 is $200. He really wants you to buy the Leica.

BH
 
I agree with FrankS, don't forget that those are words of salesman! The Zeiss Ikon has been made to be in the level of Leica, not like the Voigtlaender that are more "poor man" Leica (even if there shall be a lot to discuss on it...), About the lenses, I would never be worried by the performances of a Zeiss glass.
In my opinion you should get whatever is matching your liking, don't care about salesman.




Elia
 
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