Canon LTM Can We End the Term "Japanese Summilux?"

Canon M39 M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
This is a clash between old and new sensibilities. I also would bet the responses could quite easily also be a poll of those under 30 and over 50.
 
I've always seen it as a compliment to the Canon..both are excellent lenses!
ps. Can we stop the quote 'King of Bokeh' too???
 
The broader theme is the fact that the term "Japanese Summilux" is one of exception, in the vein of "oh look, the Japanese designed a great lens." The person who uses a phrase like this usually doesn't mean it in anything but genuine praise, but to the other person, it shows the inherent bias and power dynamic built in to society.

Phil Forrest
 
What if we said that the Canon 50mm f1.4 lens in LTM is the Rolls Royce of 50mm f1.4 in LTM lenses...I certainly found that lens more generally all around useful than the Nikkor 5cm f1.4 lens .
 
Phil_F_NM said:
The broader theme is the fact that the term "Japanese Summilux" is one of exception, in the vein of "oh look, the Japanese designed a great lens" This is analogous to telling a woman or person of color "you spoke very well." The person who uses a phrase like this usually doesn't mean it in anything but genuine praise, but to the other person, it shows the inherent bias and power dynamic built in to society. You may not think it means anything but praise, but its use is rooted in colonial power and racial bias.

Phil Forrest
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Right. Glad your wokeness has cleared it up for the benighted among us.
 
xayraa33 said:
What if we said that the Canon 50mm f1.4 lens in LTM is the Rolls Royce of 50mm f1.4 in LTM lenses...I certainly found that lens more generally all around useful than the Nikkor 5cm f1.4 lens .
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Why would Rolls Royce be an appropriate term? If you want to use an analogy of a car, using Rolls Royce is like saying "that broken coke bottle is a great lens." This, because the Rolls Royce is notoriously unreliable. Why not "the Canon 50mm f/1.4 is the Lexus of lenses"? Once again, it is assigning the implied superiority of a product produced in a western European nation to one produced in an Asian nation. It still is steeped in dynamics of power and racial bias.
I would choose a Toyota, Subaru, Honda or Mitsubishi over a Jaguar, Citroen, Cooper, Land Rover, Fiat, or MG, any day of the week. I happen to drive an ancient Mercedes-Benz, but that is because I know their diesel engines and fuel injection pumps very well and those cars tend to be extraordinarily reliable. That said, it doesn't mean that a Benz is superior to a Japanese vehicle.

Phil Forrest
 
Phil_F_NM said:
Why would Rolls Royce be an appropriate term? If you want to use an analogy of a car, using Rolls Royce is like saying "that broken coke bottle is a great lens." This, because the Rolls Royce is notoriously unreliable. Why not "the Canon 50mm f/1.4 is the Toyota Corolla of lenses"? Once again, it is assigning the implied superiority of a product produced in a western European nation to one produced in an Asian nation. It still is steeped in dynamics of power and racial bias.
I would choose a Toyota, Subaru, Honda or Mitsubishi over a Jaguar, Citroen, Cooper, Land Rover, Fiat, or MG, any day of the week. I happen to drive an ancient Mercedes-Benz, but that is because I know their diesel engines and fuel injection pumps very well and those cars tend to be extraordinarily reliable. That said, it doesn't mean that a Benz is superior to a Japanese vehicle.

Phil Forrest
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I like Rolls Royce better as the top of the pops...a Toyota Corolla while a reliable car now and Japanese made did not have the best reputation in the 1970s, as in places where they salted the roads in winter, like in most of Canada ..they became rust buckets in no time at all..this was typical with 70s Japanese cars, even Datsun and Mazda ...great engines and gearboxes but fast rust prone bodies.
 
Nothing cheap or derivative about Japanese lenses. I mean the whole Voightlander line. Superb and no one's copies.
 
The term simply refers to it being a fast f/1.4 50mm lens made in Japan, as @ellisson stated. It's not a slight, it is a compliment.

'Fujicrons' may be cringe-worthy, but it simply means an f/2 lens made by Fujifilm.

(What *is* a slight is the comment about 'white people' above.)

PC has run amok in today's world.
 
splitimageview said:
The term simply refers to it being a fast f/1.4 50mm lens made in Japan, as @ellisson stated. It's not a slight, it is a compliment.

'Fujicrons' may be cringe-worthy, but it simply means an f/2 lens made by Fujifilm.

(What *is* a slight is the comment about 'white people' above.)

PC has run amok in today's world.
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The real slight you noted appears completely acceptable nowadays. Change 'white' to something else, and it's a hate crime. As if 'white' has any more deep meaning than 'Asian' or 'Hispanic'. My family from Venezuela barely have a comprehensible language in common with a Peruvian from the high Andes. And that's about it.

The notion of a Summilux is as noted, a Latin-derived termed and its application to the Canon meant as a recognition of its abiding quality.

Again, much gratitude to posters above for bringing the overheated air of WokeWisdom to us Lessers, as a reminder to always see malicious intent in every name and comment.
 
Larry Cloetta said:
It’s not a pejorative, I’d doubt that it ever was. It’s always seemed to me to be a form of praise, which is why I’d likely still use the phrase in the unlikely event I ever had occasion to name the lens in conversation in the future. But anyone who thought it was a pejorative intended to slag an entire country probably shouldn’t use it unless slagging an entire country was their intent. I just can’t see that a significant and meaningful percentage of photographers ever understood it that way. Maybe I’m wrong, but we’ll never know.
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That was meant to be in reference to the OP's post, Larry, not some reference to a universal perception about this lens. The point is, IMO, it is not insulting or negative to use the term "Japanese Summilux"
 
With due respect, kinda sad to see the "I'm offended" thing reached this forum. I thought I saw the last of this when people where offended by slave/master flash thing, but I think not.

They are both great lenses; I don't think the Canon lens designers would get offended by the term, given the fact they designed their cameras based on a Leica design (mount and rangefinder).
 
jonmanjiro said:
While we're at it, can we end the term "bokeh king" as well?! Heck, why stop there, let's just end the term "bokeh" :D

Seriously though, like PRJ above, I've never thought of the term "Japanese Summilux" as meaning anything other than the Canon 50/1.4 is a very good lens manufactured in Japan that happens to have the same max. aperture as a Summilux. Its quite interesting that we can read the exact same thing and come away with such differing interpretations.
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Yes, interesting how responses vary based on life experience and who knows what else! So easy to "push buttons" that have different functions in different people. Variable wiring? Software updates?
 
Guth said:
Out of curiosity, what is the actual model name?
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Peter Kitchingman's book refers to the lens simply as the Canon 50mm f1.4. I dont think that Canon ever named their lenses in the way that Zeiss or Leica did. Peter Dechert's book on Canon RF cameras does not mention any lens names either, just the focal length and aperture designations.
 
I totally agree with the posters above who point out that the term "Japanese" anything to a Westerner after the war denoted something "cheap" or "derivative" and that stereotype still is present in our society. Sure, there were some people in the 1950s and 1960s who highly valued Japanese products, but that was not the prevailing sentiment -- it was in fact quite the opposite for the average person, especially for a good number (not all) WW2 vets who went to their grave with a burning hatred of Asian people. Then you have auto workers in the 1980s smashing Japanese cars out of resentment while re-raising all of the anti-Asian tropes prevalent through the history of the USA. And then it comes back again during COVID.

I think we can describe the 50mm 1.4 in a way that is fair and recognizes the achievements of Canon engineers without making it a "Japanese" version of a Western product. Canon beat Leica to the 1.4 aperture by a few years, used a unique design that is not at all similar to the eventual Summilux, and produced a very high-quality product that a normal person could more easily afford and use on the zillions of LTM cameras in circulation at the time, while the Summilux cost thousands of dollars in today's money as well as the thousands that would have been spent on an M body at the time. The 1.4 does have an annoyingly long focus throw and only 1.00m minimum focusing. Let's talk about its merits instead, and if it "needs" a "nickname," find one that is respectful and does not draw inaccurate and/or insensitive comparisons.
 
For those who see no problem to the nomenclature, let's flip it around. What if the entire world referred to all US-made Craftsman tools as the "American Ryobi?" Or all iPhones as the "American Samsung?" I'm sure that would appear unfair and draw serious objections. It should be a two-way street.
 
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