hoot
green behind the ears
After dwelling on this for several months, I have finally decided to make the leap and buy a coupled rangefinder camera with life-size magnification viewfinder, for the sole reason of being able to shoot with both eyes open. Using an external life-size viewfinder on the accessory shoe is currently not an option for me due to the lack of combined rangefinder/viewfinder and (correct me if I'm wrong) increased parallax error.
As far as I see, the only rangefinder cameras with 1:1 magnification viewfinders are the Bessa R3a, the Canon P and the Canon VI series.
I have not been able to find much information on the VI series apart from a Dante Stella review on the VI-L camera, and this RFF member's page. What I'd really like to see is some more photos of these bodies, especially the one with the trigger winder (would that be the VI-L or the VI-T?). Also, I'd like to know whether it is possible to focus the rangefinder in the 0.7x and 1x magnification modes, or only in the 1.5x mode. Finally, I'm wondering how it feels to actually use these cameras, and whether the complex mechanics of the interchangable viewfinder work well (meaning they neither break down with age, nor interfere with the photography process).
Having seen neither in the flesh, the Canon P and Bessa R3a don't seem to be radically different from one another. What the Canon P has going for it is superior build quality and wider framelines (35mm compared to the Bessa's 40mm); a modern light meter is negligible to me. After a good CLA, the P's viewfinder would probably be almost as usable as an R3a's, assuming the framelines have survived in mint condition. Right?
Price-wise, it looks as though I can get a Canon P with the standard 50mm lens for the same price as an R3a with no lens, the downside being that the P is silver, and black bodies would probably cost a fortune if they ever appeared on eBay. The VI series seems to be even more rare on eBay.
Thoughts, especially from experienced users, would be most helpful.
As far as I see, the only rangefinder cameras with 1:1 magnification viewfinders are the Bessa R3a, the Canon P and the Canon VI series.
I have not been able to find much information on the VI series apart from a Dante Stella review on the VI-L camera, and this RFF member's page. What I'd really like to see is some more photos of these bodies, especially the one with the trigger winder (would that be the VI-L or the VI-T?). Also, I'd like to know whether it is possible to focus the rangefinder in the 0.7x and 1x magnification modes, or only in the 1.5x mode. Finally, I'm wondering how it feels to actually use these cameras, and whether the complex mechanics of the interchangable viewfinder work well (meaning they neither break down with age, nor interfere with the photography process).
Having seen neither in the flesh, the Canon P and Bessa R3a don't seem to be radically different from one another. What the Canon P has going for it is superior build quality and wider framelines (35mm compared to the Bessa's 40mm); a modern light meter is negligible to me. After a good CLA, the P's viewfinder would probably be almost as usable as an R3a's, assuming the framelines have survived in mint condition. Right?
Price-wise, it looks as though I can get a Canon P with the standard 50mm lens for the same price as an R3a with no lens, the downside being that the P is silver, and black bodies would probably cost a fortune if they ever appeared on eBay. The VI series seems to be even more rare on eBay.
Thoughts, especially from experienced users, would be most helpful.
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ray_g
Guest
I have the P and VI-T. Both are extremely solid, as you described. To answer your question, the VI-T focuses on any of the 3 VF magnifications. The 1x is only for the 50mm. The 0.7x is for the 35mm lens, and the 1.5x is for longer lenses.
Personally, I find the P's VF a tiny bit brighter than the VI-T's, but not enough to matter. My only experience with the Bessa is with the R. Based on that, I would assume the R3a's VF would be significantly brighter than either Canon's.
Aside from having a warranty and a meter, the obvious advantage of the Bessa would be the ability to use both LTM and M mount lenses.
Any of these cameras would be an excellent choice.
If you will only shoot with a 50mm, I would also throw in the Konica IIIa and IIIM, also described in Dante Stellas webpage. They have a 1:1 finder, are extremely well built, and have an extremely sharp lens. The M3 may also be worth considering. The VF is .92 but is close enough to 1:1 that I have no trouble shooting with both eyes open (in fact, in the M3 instruction manual, they extoll this of the M3).
Personally, I find the P's VF a tiny bit brighter than the VI-T's, but not enough to matter. My only experience with the Bessa is with the R. Based on that, I would assume the R3a's VF would be significantly brighter than either Canon's.
Aside from having a warranty and a meter, the obvious advantage of the Bessa would be the ability to use both LTM and M mount lenses.
Any of these cameras would be an excellent choice.
If you will only shoot with a 50mm, I would also throw in the Konica IIIa and IIIM, also described in Dante Stellas webpage. They have a 1:1 finder, are extremely well built, and have an extremely sharp lens. The M3 may also be worth considering. The VF is .92 but is close enough to 1:1 that I have no trouble shooting with both eyes open (in fact, in the M3 instruction manual, they extoll this of the M3).
aizan
Veteran
forget the vi-l. it's squinty. i'd just go with the canon p, for the great prices, though the meter and ae of the r3a might start appealing to you more once you have them.
The original 1x 35mm rangefinder camera was the Nikon S2, followed by the SP, S3, and S4. All of these have 1x viewfinders and a rangefinder base on 60mm. The choice in lenses for S-Mount is more limited, but Nikon S-mount lenses sell for less on EBay than do the same lenses in LTM. And cameraquest.com has the Cosina S-Mount lenses on close-out. It is worth looking at.
If you want Leica Thread Mount, the Canon P is hard to beat. It has a wider rangefinder base than the R3a.
If you want M-Mount, the R3a is a good choice. The Leica M3 is also a good choice. For all practical purposes, the Leica M3 with its 0.92x viewfinder can be used for two-eyes open viewing. It has a long effective rangefinder base as well.
If you want Leica Thread Mount, the Canon P is hard to beat. It has a wider rangefinder base than the R3a.
If you want M-Mount, the R3a is a good choice. The Leica M3 is also a good choice. For all practical purposes, the Leica M3 with its 0.92x viewfinder can be used for two-eyes open viewing. It has a long effective rangefinder base as well.
hoot
green behind the ears
Thanks to everyone for your very helpful responses.
Brian, this is interesting, I did not know the Nikon rfs had 1:1 magnification. Nevertheless, even if lenses may be had cheaply, doesn't the body cost twice as much as a new Leica?
Ray, I was not aware of the fact that there existed a 1:1 rangefinder camera with a fixed lens. This is actually advantageous to me, as the ultimate street tool is one body and one lens, and it would help prevent a GAS attack to acquire more lenses. Also, I'm a great fan of the leaf shutter.
Dante's review of the Konica IIIa was glowing, and since I found a mint one for sale on the net, I decided to go with my instinct and buy it right away. A tad brash, perhaps, but somehow I felt it click. And it does look gorgeous.
Brian, this is interesting, I did not know the Nikon rfs had 1:1 magnification. Nevertheless, even if lenses may be had cheaply, doesn't the body cost twice as much as a new Leica?
Ray, I was not aware of the fact that there existed a 1:1 rangefinder camera with a fixed lens. This is actually advantageous to me, as the ultimate street tool is one body and one lens, and it would help prevent a GAS attack to acquire more lenses. Also, I'm a great fan of the leaf shutter.
Dante's review of the Konica IIIa was glowing, and since I found a mint one for sale on the net, I decided to go with my instinct and buy it right away. A tad brash, perhaps, but somehow I felt it click. And it does look gorgeous.
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hoot
green behind the ears
Say, Ray, do you happen to know which soft-release is best for the Konica IIIa? There's a significant height difference in the top plate between where the shutter release button is located and the "top" of the camera, which I assume will account for slight camera movement when I release the shutter with the tip of my finger. I'm hoping there's a soft-release that raises the height of the shutter release button to make it higher than the rest of the top plate.
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ray_g
Guest
Congrats, hoot. The Konica sort of has a built - in "soft release." I don't think it will take an accessory soft release, but I don't think you will need one, IMHO. Check it out when you receive the camera. It is very well designed.
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Roman
Guest
Congrats from me, too - but I hope you did not overpay - just checked completed Ebay auctions, and if yours was that 399 USD one, you might just as well have gotten a user M3...
Roman
Roman
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ray_g
Guest
About the release, I am referring to the iiim. The iiia may be different. From some photos, it appears that it may take an accessory release.
Roman, I agree, $399 is a lot for a iiia.
Roman, I agree, $399 is a lot for a iiia.
Terence T
Where'd my Bessa go?
And I've got both a Canon P and R3a for sale if you're interested, do email
ScottS
Established
I'm a bit late in the discussion here, but regarding the Canon P vs. the VI-L, VI-T:
Most people here seem to prefer the P -- simpler finder, 1x view includes framelines for 35, 50, and 100.
I've got a VI-T. I actually like the multi-magnification finder. For 50/100, the viewfinder is less cluttered. However, you lose 1:1 and parallax-corrected framelines when you go to the 35mm view (but with my glasses, the 35mm lines in the P aren't so great anyway). The 1.5x view is nice when you want accurate focus for long/fast lenses. The finder is more susceptible to deterioration than the simpler finders, though, so if possible you should inspect the camera in person or get a detailed description of the finder condition.
The first VI-T I purchased on ebay (at a great price with a bundled 50/1.2) had a clear viewfinder, but the 100mm framelines were almost completely worn away. I ended up selling that body here (describing the finder issuesm of course) and buying another one with a better finder. However, even this one doesn't have framelines as clear as Joe's Canon P I saw in NY (I'm not sure if all of his P's have such clear finders). If you ever expect to use auxiliary viewfinders (such as the 85,135, etc), the VI has another nice feature. If you have the correct canon finders, a pin in the accessory shoe moves as you focus, automatically moving the finder to correct for parallax.
If you don't like the trigger wind, the VI-L is the same as the VI-T with a conventional lever wind.
The VI-L seems to be quite rare on ebay. The VI-T is a bit more common (but not as common as the P or the VT), and can often be had for a reasonable price, especially if you're willing to buy it with a lens.
Scott
Most people here seem to prefer the P -- simpler finder, 1x view includes framelines for 35, 50, and 100.
I've got a VI-T. I actually like the multi-magnification finder. For 50/100, the viewfinder is less cluttered. However, you lose 1:1 and parallax-corrected framelines when you go to the 35mm view (but with my glasses, the 35mm lines in the P aren't so great anyway). The 1.5x view is nice when you want accurate focus for long/fast lenses. The finder is more susceptible to deterioration than the simpler finders, though, so if possible you should inspect the camera in person or get a detailed description of the finder condition.
The first VI-T I purchased on ebay (at a great price with a bundled 50/1.2) had a clear viewfinder, but the 100mm framelines were almost completely worn away. I ended up selling that body here (describing the finder issuesm of course) and buying another one with a better finder. However, even this one doesn't have framelines as clear as Joe's Canon P I saw in NY (I'm not sure if all of his P's have such clear finders). If you ever expect to use auxiliary viewfinders (such as the 85,135, etc), the VI has another nice feature. If you have the correct canon finders, a pin in the accessory shoe moves as you focus, automatically moving the finder to correct for parallax.
If you don't like the trigger wind, the VI-L is the same as the VI-T with a conventional lever wind.
The VI-L seems to be quite rare on ebay. The VI-T is a bit more common (but not as common as the P or the VT), and can often be had for a reasonable price, especially if you're willing to buy it with a lens.
Scott
back alley
IMAGES
and even more after the fact...unless you have a 'thing' for the classics don't underestimate the niceness of new.
joe
joe
My user condition Nikon SP was under $1,000 with F1.4 lens. That is cheaper than an M3 with a Summilux. My user Nikon S3 with F1.4 was under $900. If you want a new one, look for a collector unloading a Nikon S3-2000 with lens to get a new SP. The priced of the S3, lens, and case are below $2,500. That is a lot less than a Leica MP with F1.4 lens.
hoot
green behind the ears
Thanks for the additional responses.
Terence, thanks for your Canon P offer, which I might get back to you on - but I'd like to have a gander at my new IIIa first.
Roman - yes, that one was mine, but Dante's review, and the fact that this rare old camera was available when I looked for it, and in mint condition no less, made me go for it. I'm having it shipped to my summer camp here and am edging to give it a try. No use pinching a few pennies - my next day off is in two weeks, and I might not have a chance to look on eBay again until then.
Brian, thanks for these quotes. If you see anything interesting, feel free to give me a heads-up. If I end up hating the IIIa and selling it, I'll definitely be looking into both Canon and Nikon options. Call it sour grapes if you will, but somehow I don't feel like getting an R3a anymore. Electronic shutters have never felt quite right to my index finger. Give me a 7sII over an XA any day.
I'll be back later, gotta go.
Terence, thanks for your Canon P offer, which I might get back to you on - but I'd like to have a gander at my new IIIa first.
Roman - yes, that one was mine, but Dante's review, and the fact that this rare old camera was available when I looked for it, and in mint condition no less, made me go for it. I'm having it shipped to my summer camp here and am edging to give it a try. No use pinching a few pennies - my next day off is in two weeks, and I might not have a chance to look on eBay again until then.
Brian, thanks for these quotes. If you see anything interesting, feel free to give me a heads-up. If I end up hating the IIIa and selling it, I'll definitely be looking into both Canon and Nikon options. Call it sour grapes if you will, but somehow I don't feel like getting an R3a anymore. Electronic shutters have never felt quite right to my index finger. Give me a 7sII over an XA any day.
I'll be back later, gotta go.
John Shriver
Well-known
There are other 35mm leaf-shutter rangefinders with 1:1 viewfinders, like the Topcon 35-L. That one's not very common, however.
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ray_g
Guest
I wish you'd asked, Hoot. Heck, I'd have sold you my mint IIIM for that price
Enjoy it. The camera's great!
Enjoy it. The camera's great!
T
tedwhite
Guest
Congrats, Hoot. Never even seen a Konica IIIA, much less used one. Should be fun. But I just gotta put in a plug for the Bessa. Mine is an R, not a 3A, but they've got astonishingly bright viewfinders, and it's kinda like owning a Leica without having to do a second mortgage.
Sure the film door is plastic, but after spending ten years with Minolta Maxxums, I simply don't care. What I care about is image quality and ease of use.
Anyway, let us know about the Konica experience when you've run a roll or two.
Ted
Sure the film door is plastic, but after spending ten years with Minolta Maxxums, I simply don't care. What I care about is image quality and ease of use.
Anyway, let us know about the Konica experience when you've run a roll or two.
Ted
Nice looking S3 with F1.4 lens on a BIN. No connection with seller, but has 99.8% positive feedback. Seller states it has been recently serviced.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7529191088&category=15234&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7529191088&category=15234&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1
hoot
green behind the ears
The Konica IIIa arrived last week. Everything seems fine but the rangefinder patch was out of vertical alignment. I managed to get the seller to refund $59 and will probably use that money to fund a CLA.
On the lens barrel, the shutter speed wheel is linked to the aperture wheel, so to rotate them independently of each other one needs to push down on a third wheel, which has exposure values on it. This is an annoying hassle for street photography, as I often find myself passing from sunlight to shade, needing to quickly compensate with 1 or 2 stops each time. This is very difficult to do in stride - I have to stop, look at the camera, clutch the body *and* push down the EV wheel with one hand, then adjust the shutter or aperture wheel with the other.
Is it possible to unlink the aperture and shutter wheels from each other, or have that done for you in the course of a CLA?
On the lens barrel, the shutter speed wheel is linked to the aperture wheel, so to rotate them independently of each other one needs to push down on a third wheel, which has exposure values on it. This is an annoying hassle for street photography, as I often find myself passing from sunlight to shade, needing to quickly compensate with 1 or 2 stops each time. This is very difficult to do in stride - I have to stop, look at the camera, clutch the body *and* push down the EV wheel with one hand, then adjust the shutter or aperture wheel with the other.
Is it possible to unlink the aperture and shutter wheels from each other, or have that done for you in the course of a CLA?
hoot
green behind the ears
On a different note, shooting with the 1:1 finder with both eyes open was even better than I expected, and I found it easier to engage even candid subjects with a disarming smile that reaped positive reactions.
Also, the mecanically-released leaf shutter is QUIET and really vibration-free. I love it. Leica should build a leaf-shutter rangefinder.
The rewind lever (click for photo) is a bit harsh on my fingers. Perhaps it's missing a part, as the section that I have to hold while rewinding looks like something else should be screwed on. If anyone has any hints, please let me know. Thanks!
Also, the mecanically-released leaf shutter is QUIET and really vibration-free. I love it. Leica should build a leaf-shutter rangefinder.
The rewind lever (click for photo) is a bit harsh on my fingers. Perhaps it's missing a part, as the section that I have to hold while rewinding looks like something else should be screwed on. If anyone has any hints, please let me know. Thanks!