oldoc
oldoc
As a general rule, I agree with wgerrard.
No allowing for those without ethics, or those who don't read.
No allowing for those without ethics, or those who don't read.
Caveat Emptor ethics
- Thread starter Jamie Pillers
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Disaster_Area
Gadget Monger
And when I sell things I thoroughly photo document the item before shipping so if someone comes back with a complaint about the condition I have photo evidence as to who's fault it is...
JohnTF
Veteran
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It is unfortunate the bad things stick in our minds, someone estimated a factor of ten times, relative to good things.
I bought a Mamiya 645 on a photo forum, was supposed to be mint, belonged to his father. Turns out the shutter needed a rebuild, I found a reasonable repair, and the guy sent the money. Something like $125.
I had forgotten this.
What I remember is a guy on the same forum who bought a serviced TLR from me, not too much money, and he listed a number of problems. I sent his money back, and told him to keep the camera in case he found reasonable service. My way of keeping the exchanges friendly on the forum, and I learned not to buy these types of TLR's with any expectation of dependability.
He posted my name years later, with some mudslinging, and said "He refused to take the camera back". He did not address it to me.
In both cases, trust was involved, with entirely different results, and you know which one sticks in the mind.
In the interest of keeping things friendly, I would recommend some sort of reasonable settlement, e.g. get an estimate for a new shutter, see what amount you are talking about, and split it. The original repairman very well might fix it for free, if he sees it is his error, good repair folks often go above and beyond.
Are we talking thousands of dollars? Hundreds? Fifty?
When buying at a Camera Show, or a good shop, you are face to face, and that somehow counts for more. This forum's classifieds relies on its good reputation, and that counts for more. Hope that remains.
I remain kind of unclear as to the expectation of the OP.
Regards, John
I bought a Mamiya 645 on a photo forum, was supposed to be mint, belonged to his father. Turns out the shutter needed a rebuild, I found a reasonable repair, and the guy sent the money. Something like $125.
I had forgotten this.
What I remember is a guy on the same forum who bought a serviced TLR from me, not too much money, and he listed a number of problems. I sent his money back, and told him to keep the camera in case he found reasonable service. My way of keeping the exchanges friendly on the forum, and I learned not to buy these types of TLR's with any expectation of dependability.
He posted my name years later, with some mudslinging, and said "He refused to take the camera back". He did not address it to me.
In both cases, trust was involved, with entirely different results, and you know which one sticks in the mind.
In the interest of keeping things friendly, I would recommend some sort of reasonable settlement, e.g. get an estimate for a new shutter, see what amount you are talking about, and split it. The original repairman very well might fix it for free, if he sees it is his error, good repair folks often go above and beyond.
Are we talking thousands of dollars? Hundreds? Fifty?
When buying at a Camera Show, or a good shop, you are face to face, and that somehow counts for more. This forum's classifieds relies on its good reputation, and that counts for more. Hope that remains.
I remain kind of unclear as to the expectation of the OP.
Regards, John
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oldoc
oldoc
DA, is that in addition to the photos you make for the sale?
wgerrard
Veteran
Well, one thing that happens, and something I think Jamie was alluding to, is the use of "Caveat Emptor!" to provide cover and excuses for a buyer who deliberately sets out to cheat and deceive. That turns a market transaction into a catch-me-if-you-can competition.
When you buy something online you certainly need to beware of a number of things, including the fact that many sellers lack the expertise needed to accurately judge the condition of whatever it is they are selling. That doesn't make their descriptions dishonest, just potentially unreliable.
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
This is one of the reasons I always use my credit card - even when paying through paypal. Regardless of what Paypal's own policies might be, I know my credit card company will deal with any issues I might run into with negligent or unscrupulous sellers.
All I know is that if I buy something from someone and it is substantially not as described - that item will be going back. I'm not a nitpicker. But if someone says a camera works perfectly, or a lens is free of fungus, etc., then that needs to be true.
All I know is that if I buy something from someone and it is substantially not as described - that item will be going back. I'm not a nitpicker. But if someone says a camera works perfectly, or a lens is free of fungus, etc., then that needs to be true.
Dave Wilkinson
Veteran
If I have described an item correctly, priced it fairly, and that item - that may be thirty or forty years old, is in good working order when it leaves my hands - then if after a month or two the buyer insists on shipping it back to me - then I shall have the item plus the price of it! - end of story!.
Dave.
P.S. after about six years selling ( and buying ) on the 'Bay, I still retain 100% pos. f/back 🙂
Dave.
P.S. after about six years selling ( and buying ) on the 'Bay, I still retain 100% pos. f/back 🙂
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
I understand this point of view. The reason I came to the conclusions I did about the seller is that (1) I am familiar with these cameras... I've owned several; (2) in the seller's ad he pointed out that the shutter had been damaged, repaired, and was now working perfectly; (3) as soon as I received it, the problem was there (yes I know I should have dealt with it then and there... I've explained my reasons why I didn't (as wishy-washy as they are), and I seriously doubt if this problem could have been caused by postal transit; (4) its the kind of problem that the seller would have noticed immediately upon receiving the camera back from repairman. All of this reasoning would probably not stand up in some sort of court of law... they are just what I see. You can make up your own mind about the strengths and weaknesses of this stuff.
To Bob in Sausalito... I didn't reveal your name at that time, and I don't intend on revealing the name of this seller. The issues are fuzzy enough in both cases that I think its unfair to do so, given the nature of these transactions. I created this post to get a conversation going about the ethics of accepting "caveat emptor" as the single rule governing these transactions.
To Bob in Sausalito... I didn't reveal your name at that time, and I don't intend on revealing the name of this seller. The issues are fuzzy enough in both cases that I think its unfair to do so, given the nature of these transactions. I created this post to get a conversation going about the ethics of accepting "caveat emptor" as the single rule governing these transactions.
JohnL
Very confused
I would suggest you leave seller feedback with all the facts coldly and accurately stated. At least then we will know if we ever stumble across that seller again on this forum.
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
Many of you here have discussed the idea of obligations of the seller, time allowed for returns, and reasonableness of buyer requests for refunds.
Here is the primary rule I govern myself with when selling stuff on-line:
When I offer something for sale, I say you can return the item if its not exactly as I say it is in the ad. This forces me to be as accurate as I can.
If the buyer, at ANY time after the sale, can show that there was something wrong with the merchandise at the time I sold it and that wasn't mentioned in the ad, then I believe its right to undo the transaction or negotiate a settlement if the buyer wishes. I had to do this once, in my early days of online trading, when I neglected to mention that the light seals on a camera body were old and deteriorating. I took the camera back immediately, had the seals repaired and then re-sold it.
My point in this post has been to point out that "caveat emptor" lets sellers off the hook in many of these on-line sales. A seller can choose to not mention some fault or another in the original ad, and if the buyer doesn't catch it in some arbitrary time period, the seller is off the hook. The seller has been allowed to be dishonest by RULE... "caveat emptor". Interesting, don't you think?
Here is the primary rule I govern myself with when selling stuff on-line:
When I offer something for sale, I say you can return the item if its not exactly as I say it is in the ad. This forces me to be as accurate as I can.
If the buyer, at ANY time after the sale, can show that there was something wrong with the merchandise at the time I sold it and that wasn't mentioned in the ad, then I believe its right to undo the transaction or negotiate a settlement if the buyer wishes. I had to do this once, in my early days of online trading, when I neglected to mention that the light seals on a camera body were old and deteriorating. I took the camera back immediately, had the seals repaired and then re-sold it.
My point in this post has been to point out that "caveat emptor" lets sellers off the hook in many of these on-line sales. A seller can choose to not mention some fault or another in the original ad, and if the buyer doesn't catch it in some arbitrary time period, the seller is off the hook. The seller has been allowed to be dishonest by RULE... "caveat emptor". Interesting, don't you think?
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
And if you do put such restrictions on your ad, it sells for significantly less. Fair enough.
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
I kind of like the idea you have unearthed here. It might be really interesting to see what would happen if RFF instituted a new rule here for its classifieds: "Any item offered for sale here is sold as is, no returns allowed... period!" I can imagine this kind of rule would engender some very different kinds of conversations between buyers and sellers. And I imagine it would have a significant impact on sales prices.
Naw... never work... never mind. I mean, if there was a rule like this, then you'd have all these buyers and sellers negotiatiing side deals that lay out the precise conditions of the sale, time to look the item over, acceptable reasons for returns, etc.. Now that I think of it, that would certainly have "got my head into the game" at the outset!! 🙂
Naw... never work... never mind. I mean, if there was a rule like this, then you'd have all these buyers and sellers negotiatiing side deals that lay out the precise conditions of the sale, time to look the item over, acceptable reasons for returns, etc.. Now that I think of it, that would certainly have "got my head into the game" at the outset!! 🙂
Gumby
Veteran
No, not correct... and getting to the point of not even being interesting. Your ethics espoused in post 55 are just too high for the business world, or for the sale/trading of old/used stuff. You need to do what makes you comfortable when you sell stuff, but please remember that mistakes happen -- on both the buyer and seller sides. A mistake may have happened in your case. The item (for whatever reason) may not have been fully described; You noticed a problem immediatey but failed to take action. It is quite unfortunate. But it is likely the time to let things go and move on. You, this thread, or this forum will not change the way business is done. I doubt that this "buyer beware" philosophy is anything new... isn't that Latin phrase you keep repeating quite old? Society may change some day but let me tell you something I know for sure: even in "church environments", where ethics tend to be higher than in on-line trading, these issues arise. People are people and they have human failings. "Society" (at least in the civilized world) really isn't that bad once you average things out. You had a bad experience and most of us are sorry you had that experience. Most of us have had a similar bad experience. Many of us have also had many good experiences with online trading of old stuff. Let it go; move on and get a camera that will make you both a happy and successful photographer.
p.s. what kind of a camera was it... I've been really curious?
oldoc
oldoc
Yeah, phrase is from around Julius Caesar's days, I believe...but the early Greeks said it in their own way, too.
Dave Wilkinson
Veteran
I don't know if the law is different where you live....but here when buying from a dealer, weather car, bike, camera, whatever....you have recourse if things are not right, and goods must be 'fit for purpose', however - if the seller is not a 'dealer' but a private individual, you take a chance ( preferably after examination!) and if it does'nt work out - tough!....unless, of course obvious fraud is involved! 🙁
Dave.
Dave.
Disaster_Area
Gadget Monger
Yes.. I usually only provide basic photo's of whatever I'm selling UNLESS there's a defect or damaged area I need to show, then I include those too. But for my self I always take 6 photo's, one from each side and close ups of any bits that are easily broken by someone who doesn't know what they're doing. This is something that happens a LOT with older camera's. We take for granted that no matter what we pick up whether it's a Canon 5D, a Nikon D300 or a M8, the shutter, dials etc all work pretty much the same. But there are way to many vintage camera's that have caveats like "If you turn the knob to 1/60th BEFORE putting film in but AFTER adjusting the aperture... the camera will explode in your hands and burn your house down" ;P
So I document my vintage stuff carefully.
oldoc
oldoc
If i had a camera like that right now, I'd send it to open road photography...
bob338
Well-known
by saying that you didn't reveal my name at the time of our trade implies that i did something wrong or unethical. there is nothing fuzzy about our transaction; you replied to my ad, drove over to pick it up, said you were happy with the trade and then wanted your toys back. i didn't want to trade back and i distinctly remember asking you before you left if you were sure about the trade and you said that you were. case closed.
i only chimed in on this thread because regret seems to be a problem for you and i was on the sh*tty end of it once. it's unfair to call into question a sellers ethics a month after you discovered the problem. you remain obtuse about who the seller is, but made sure to mention that the transaction happened here. so if someone remembers the ad, they will immediately assume the seller is a crook. maybe he is, but maybe he isn't.
it seems disingenuous to me to air this dirty laundry here.
bob
kermaier
Well-known
Honest mistakes do happen...
Honest mistakes do happen...
It could be the case that the seller sent the camera off for a shutter repair, wound and snapped a couple times when it came back, and put it up for sale without ever encountering the intermittent failure. And, though the issue cropped up in the same subsystem that was repaired, even an honest seller might conclude that, after a month of use, it could just as easily be a new problem with an old camera that he can't be on the hook for ad infinitum.
I once brought a lens in to a local repair shop to have the diaphragm cleaned. When I picked it up, I didn't have a camera body with me, so I just inspected it visually, turned the aperture ring through its range, worked the focus ring, paid and left. When I got home, I mounted it on my camera, only to discover that the lens barrel had been reassembled a bit off the mark, such that the aperture scale was now on the underside of the lens when mounted! If I'd had the lens serviced just in order to sell it, I might have shipped it off without noticing a slight, shall we say, "usability issue". 😉 Of course, I would have taken the lens back with a profuse apology, and even paid for 2-way shipping, but I could easily understand the buyer judging me guilty of a serious lapse in my responsibility as a seller.
::Ari
Honest mistakes do happen...
It could be the case that the seller sent the camera off for a shutter repair, wound and snapped a couple times when it came back, and put it up for sale without ever encountering the intermittent failure. And, though the issue cropped up in the same subsystem that was repaired, even an honest seller might conclude that, after a month of use, it could just as easily be a new problem with an old camera that he can't be on the hook for ad infinitum.
I once brought a lens in to a local repair shop to have the diaphragm cleaned. When I picked it up, I didn't have a camera body with me, so I just inspected it visually, turned the aperture ring through its range, worked the focus ring, paid and left. When I got home, I mounted it on my camera, only to discover that the lens barrel had been reassembled a bit off the mark, such that the aperture scale was now on the underside of the lens when mounted! If I'd had the lens serviced just in order to sell it, I might have shipped it off without noticing a slight, shall we say, "usability issue". 😉 Of course, I would have taken the lens back with a profuse apology, and even paid for 2-way shipping, but I could easily understand the buyer judging me guilty of a serious lapse in my responsibility as a seller.
::Ari
oldoc
oldoc
Sorta the reason I suggested you guys do this by PM. I am not involved, but it is affecting the way you both are perceived, at least by me, and I am thinking this can bel resolved satisfactorily, I hope. But this amounts to the same effect produced when a couple having a fistfight at the neighborhood Safeway. I hope you guys can reach peace...
