Cheap, reasonably reliable medium format (120) camera/system - suggestions?

[Frontman]

In Japan you can now get a working RB67 with a film back and lens for about $150. I have also come across several Pentax 67 cameras in the sub-$200 price range. Come to think of it, you can get pretty much any medium format camera for around this price, with the exception of Hassy/Rollei cameras. Today I was looking at a Mamiya 330 TLR with an 80/2.8 lens for $200. Tempting, but I don't need yet another camera system.

If you want cheap, you can always get a Holga...

 

[Ezzie]

......


I must be doing something wrong, I've been registered on APUG for ages (although I haven't visited the site recently), but I can't view your images other than thumbnails even when logged in. From musing at the thumbnails they look like lovely B/W though! 🙂

Mac

Sorry, silly of me. You need to be a subscriber to use and access the Apug galleries. Look here instead: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ezzie0304/sets/72157625081279605/

 

[sevo]

In Japan you can now get a working RB67 with a film back and lens for about $150.

The age spread of used RB's and RZ's is enormous - the old, less digital-ready ones often are bizarrely cheap, while the last generation (which is not really that muxh different) still are sold new, and tend to have used prices not that far off their new street price...

If you know what you are doing and don't mind heavy gear, the RB/RZ certainly is an option. Still cheaper and better value for money are the Mamiya M645 or M645Pro (skip the Super, that one has the highest failure rate of them all) and Pentax 645 - both now sell for 35mm SLR prices, have great lenses and are parts of systems that still are upgradeable to AF/digital.

 

[David Murphy]

RB67 system gear is easiest to find and is quite good and not too expensive either - a bit heavy and large. Other choices are the Kowa 6 or 66 or possibly a Bronica S2A (I don't have direct experience with the Bronica, but they have a good rep and use Nikkor and Komura lenses - pretty good optics). The Kowa (which I own) and the Bronica S2A will most likely need service before use due to their age.

The Mamiya 645 is a battery dependent system which automatically removes it from my list.

 

[andredossantos]

Most definitely a Rolleiflex. Any of the older models are "affordable": MX, MXEVS, Automat, etc

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

A Rolleicord seems a good choice as interchangeable lenses are not desired, according to the original post. The additional complication and weight that many SLRs involve would appear to negate the advantage of being able to change lenses, if this is not important to the purchaser.

I confess that I sometimes wonder why many people suggest an earlier model Rolleiflex if it has a 3.5 Tessar lens. I have never owned such a Rolleiflex myself, but all have read about Rollei TLRs suggests this is essentially the same optical formula as a later Rolleicord Xenar 3.5 taking lens. Given that a Rolleicord is both lighter and less complicated, yet also well-built, I can see little practical benefit in having a Flex with an equivalent lens instead. The automated film loading of a Flex is, I think, a vastly overstated benefit for non-professional use. It is not very hard to line up a couple of arrows and dots and both feature automatic frame advance. The sole practical advantage of the Flex remains the automatic cocking of the shutter.

Not that I am anti Flex. I purchased a 2.8D earlier this year, in addition to my Rolleicord V & Va models, and totally appreciate why someone might recommend a 2.8 or 3.5 Planar/Xenotar. I just can't see why you would seek out something that weighs more and won't perform any better optically (unless you really like a heavier camera, perhaps?). Having said that, let me contradict myself somewhat by saying nearly any Rollei TLR is a thing of beauty-I'd always encourage anyone interested to purchase any decent example that presents itself. I adore my own.
Cheers
Brett

 

[Frank Petronio]

Probably the biggest determining factor when it comes to using the camera is the viewing system -- whether a top-down hood or a prism or rangefinder. Decide on that or try them over time, then you can figure out which camera.

For value and quality it is hard to beat a good Rolleicord V or Vb with a clean mirror and screen.

 

[Vince Lupo]

Right now you can pick up Hasselblad 500C's dirt cheap (at least in the USA) -- I paid $325 for a nice 500C with an A12 back, waist level finder and 80mm lens two years ago. Plus, 150mm f/4 lenses are inexpensive as well. Of course, they may be well used, but you will still have a quality camera. Back interchangeability is a great thing to have, and possibilities for expanding your system would be endless, particularly as you are able to afford additional things. Check KEH's site to compare prices.

I've owned Bronica S2's, and they are prone to having problems with the film advance mechanisms (don't you have to wind the knob about 4 complete revolutions to advance the film?). S2a's are a bit better, but not by much. Finding parts could be an issue if you ever do have trouble. Plus, they have loud clunky focal plane shutters (If you're planning on using electronic flash, hope you like 1/40 sec.). Nice lenses though, particularly the 200/4 Nikkor!

Mamiya C330's are rock solid cameras, but you can't interchange film backs, if that's important to you. Probably the best value for the money.

Mamiya 645's are very good cameras and would be a great choice too, as well as the venerable RB67's, but the RB's are gigantic in size.

I love Rolleiflexes (have owned 3, including a Wide), but you have to like working with a one-lens camera, as well as a one film kind at a time. And unless you're getting a 12/24 Rollei, you're stuck with 120.

I guess the other question is how much in fact do you want to spend?

 

[Vince Lupo]

I was just checking KEH prices, and this is what you could get in these two camera types:

Mamiya C330 with waist level finder and 80mm lens: $253

135mm Mamiya lens: $79

Hasselblad 500C body w/ waistlevel: $225

A12 Back: $69

A24 back: $59

80mm lens: $225

150mm lens: $179

If you looked even a bit deeper there, you could find some items in those categories that are even cheaper, but I was trying to balance cost with condition (and knowing that KEH's 'bargain' items can still be really good).

 

[M4cr0s]

Thank you again guys!

I'm reading, thinking, checking and considering. For instance, in some cases even keh and the 25 % import tax might be a viable solution, due to the difficulty of finding a reasonably priced camera locally. With a standard 35mm SLR and most rangefinders I'm able to check out the camera and judge if it's likely more or less functioning. That is, if I can meet the seller face to face. Much worse with these for me, unknown camera bodies that I have to "learn" first. If from keh I at least know they are likely fully functional.

I very much appreciate the input!

Mac

 

[delft]

Another support for the M645 system. Here in the Netherlands, you can often find a good deal on a used one. Some thoughts to add to the confusion:
- You might take into consideration the price of lenses too. That's what kept me off buying Hasselblad.
- Do you need an instant-return mirror? The RB's mirror stays up until you re-cock the shutter.
- Is shutter-lag important? The RB has a quite noticeable lag.
- Do you need exchangeable film backs? Older M645 don't have these (newer do).
- Can you resist the lure of bigger negatives? After playing around with 6x7, 645 looks a bit smallish.
- If you plan to do your own enlarging, does your enlarger accomodate 645, 6x7, 6x9?

Good luck,

Dirk

 

[dfoo]

I just picked up a C330 with 55/80/180 lenses for $300. I've been looking for a while for such a great deal, but they are out there.

 

[oftheherd]

Probably the biggest determining factor when it comes to using the camera is the viewing system -- whether a top-down hood or a prism or rangefinder. Decide on that or try them over time, then you can figure out which camera.

For value and quality it is hard to beat a good Rolleicord V or Vb with a clean mirror and screen.

That's good advice! Weight is also a good consideration, then interchangeable backs (or not). Interesting way to cull the choices. Same with interchangeable lenses (you said not a problem). Should be easier now.

In my case, I prefer my Super Press 23, and some folders I have. May not work for you. Do the culling first.

 

[Steve M.]

Well, it's a tough one unless you have some examples to try first, so if there's any camera stores near you, or photography clubs, see if you can at least hold and shoot a few MF cameras. When you move up from 35mm the cameras get a LOT bigger and heavier. Some people just don't adapt to a TLR, and even though I can finally shoot one pretty good I sure don't like carrying my Rolleiflex. It's really heavy and awkward, especially w/ a prism finder. If you go for any of the less expensive SLR's I don't think you'll find that they have the same image quality as a Rolleiflex either. It took me a long time to figure this out, but a camera that I don't want to carry is not worth much no matter how killer the photos from it are.

If it were me I'd go for a nice old folder like a Welta Weltur, Super Ikonta or a Voigtlander. They have excellent lenses and are easy to slip into a pocket. An Agfa Isolette w/ an Apotar is a nice cheap folder too, but make sure the bellows has been replaced and that the lens focus is free. The other cameras I mentioned will cost more up front but will nearly always have light tight bellows.

 

[JoeV]

I agree with Frank that the viewing system is important. Of equal importance is your preference for the aspect ratio. Of course, medium format affords the opportunity to crop images, but for maximum bang for the buck, keeping the images full-frame, uncropped, is best. This relates to one's personal preference toward rectangular vs square format, and is a key factor in the decision.

Given the OP's criteria for non-interchangeable lens, reliability and low cost, if square format is a preference, then I'd recommend any number of TLR cameras, especially the Yashica-Mat's, which seem to be a good compromise between cost and quality. Of course, with many of these cameras you'll need a light meter (that goes with all but the latest MF system cameras). Some of the older TLR cameras also had onboard meters, like the Yashica-Mat LM.

~Joe

 

[Krosya]

I too would rcommend Kowa Six. Whilethere are many good MF systems there, Many are 645 format, that I dont like, or 67/69, which is often too heavy. I find 6x6 to be the best, and I did try Mamiya 645 and RB67 systems.
I did try Hasselblad and Kiev 88. Kowa made me sell all that - great camera with superb lenses that offers in some cases more that famous Hassy. And I never had a problem with it - something I cant say about other MF systems I used.

 

[ornate_wrasse]

I was browsing in the For Sale forum on the large format photography forum and I saw the following ad. It is inexpensive and seems to meet your needs. Let me know if you'd like more information on this camera. I can't direct you to the ad as you have to be a member of the forum for at least 30 days to access the For Sale forum.

I would snap this one up in a hurry if I didn't already own the Mamiya 6 medium format rangefinder camera!



FS: Mamiya C220 exc condition!
Mamiya C220 Body with waist level finder
lens hood and original leather case (for lens hood)
80 mm f2.8 lens with cap

$265 including shipping (within USA)

This camera is in very nice condition and takes great photos. The body has a few small scuffs on the edges but nothing major. The glass on the lens is in very good shape. There are probably cleaning marks on some elements but nothing major that I can find.

I have another MF camera to use and need to sell some stuff to fund the used Sinar I just purchased.

 

[M4cr0s]

Man, there's so many nice cameras. I've been reading and reading the last few days, and of course, watching images of the beauts. Wish I had a house to fill, and money to buy them all, and time to touch, fondle and carefully exercise them! 😉

Right now I'm actually leaning a bit on a Yashica-mat, an EM (looks like a beautiful camera) or 124 I think. Looks like it's able to produce decent results stopped down a bit, it's also rather common and cheap, quite a few of them around. The quote "entry level medium format" sounds very bulls-eye. I will definitely be shooting a few rolls and having some fun, but remember I'm of the instant gratification-generation 😉 This will give me a chance to get a taste and learn a bit more about certain aspects of this craft without breaking the bank.

Size, weight, viewing system, format (crop) are all things I'm very open to experience different varieties of. It's about learning. 3:2 and a typical 35mm SLR horizontal viewfinder is what's natural to me because that's what I've used all the time. Although, I do find a more elongated aspect ratio more practical for most of my applications, be it landscape or portrait (3:2 is okay for tight portraits though). However, I see no reason why one can't do good stuff in square, it just feels unnatural and a waste to crop a 3:2 digital frame to a square, it wasn't what one saw through the peep-hole originally. Surely a different thing with a MF camera.

Anyway, should this be love at first click, I'd want to invest more later on anyway on a modern and expandable "medium" format system (likely the Pentax 645D if they can keep it alive and I can find someone that want a heavily used kidney).

Thanks again all, there is a lot of experience, knowledge and opinions on this forum 🙂

Mac

 

[Mablo]

I too would rcommend Kowa Six. Whilethere are many good MF systems there, Many are 645 format, that I dont like, or 67/69, which is often too heavy. I find 6x6 to be the best, and I did try Mamiya 645 and RB67 systems.
I did try Hasselblad and Kiev 88. Kowa made me sell all that - great camera with superb lenses that offers in some cases more that famous Hassy. And I never had a problem with it - something I cant say about other MF systems I used.

I've been following Kowa 66 threads with interest. There are several models of the body. Which one should I look for?

 

[daveleo]

i have to agree here

i have to agree here

Probably the biggest determining factor when it comes to using the camera is the viewing system -- whether a top-down hood or a prism or rangefinder. Decide on that or try them over time, then you can figure out which camera.
. . . . . . .

i recently traded my Mamiya C330 (80mm lens) to KEH and bought a Fuji GS645 (60mm) from them. . . . very very different cameras. The C330 was a brick, top-down viewing, somewhat a top-heavy feeling. The Fugi weighs less than my Nikon FM3A+105mm lens and in my hands actually feels more comfortable.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the C330 design and quality . . . . until I handled the Fuji. . . . I much prefer the rangefinder format.

Also . . . my many dealings with KEH is that they seriously UNDER-rate the quality of the stuff they sell you. Someone else here noted that what they rate as "good" really looks "excellent" to me.