Civil Disobedience

[dmr]

It's always worth pointing out to over-zealous security staff that they have no real powers.

Here is where I disagree. In the conversation I had with my attorney friend, referred to above, he noted that some (many?) of those who seek careers in almost-law-enforcement do love authority and may be apt to try to prove it in any way they can if that authority is questioned. I think the exact quote was "Never tell a (rent-a)cop that he can't do something" or words to that effect.

 

[woodphoto]

Here is where I disagree. In the conversation I had with my attorney friend, referred to above, he noted that some (many?) of those who seek careers in almost-law-enforcement do love authority and may be apt to try to prove it in any way they can if that authority is questioned. I think the exact quote was "Never tell a (rent-a)cop that he can't do something" or words to that effect.

It depends on where you are. security is thier for a reason, usually to protect the property or whats o the property. So if your on private property, i.e. property you need permission to be on, then if they ask you to stop and you don't, and then ask you to leave, they, the security can and are able to place tou under "citizen" arrest, which could include you the photographer being placed in hancuffes, cameras being confiscated, searched for weapons and handed over to actual police officers. You could be charged with tresspassing, if you gave the security a hard time you could be charged with resiting arrest......but all this is worst case.....

 

[FrankS]

Actually its not really public....I work for a city, and even if its paid for with tax dollors or public donation it then becomes city property, and they can enforce laws or restrictions as the city sees fit. Look at it like this, tax money pays for police cars, but you can't just get in and drive it for a while.....and if you think those don't compare, well the city thinks that their the same.
Its private/public property, the city lets us use under their terms.
It sucks for me because I actually have to enforce the permit rules (which I don't agree with) at parks and tell photographers they can't shoot.....

Michael, could you elaborate on what the rules are in the situation that you are involved with?

 

[woodphoto]

Michael, could you elaborate on what the rules are in the situation that you are involved with?

I work for Parks and Reacreation, In charge of all parks and playgrounds, and basically if any one wants to Photograph or Film on a city park, (student or professional) is required to get a permit, which is usually free depending on your intentions. Student are free, proffesionals have to pay, usually......we can tell (I can tell)
Simlpy put, if you show up with a camera, we (the city) want to know who, what and why.
Its parlty for safty (stalkers, child molesters, and people of that sort), and partly for some revenue.
The rule sucks, but they pay me a lot of money, so I don't feel that bad........

 

[Bryce]

Citizens arrest in the U.S. is a funny thing.... From what I've gathered it is basically toothless. And I have also been told that citizens arrest does not include physical restraint; i.e. a rent-a-cop who handcuffs you is bound for legal troubles of his own if you report it.
Can anyone with actual information about this elaborate? Someone with a working knowlege of the law?
Either way, it would be stupid to push things that far. Comply, then complain to the authorities.

 

[woodphoto]

Citizens arrest in the U.S. is a funny thing.... From what I've gathered it is basically toothless. And I have also been told that citizens arrest does not include physical restraint; i.e. a rent-a-cop who handcuffs you is bound for legal troubles of his own if you report it.
Can anyone with actual information about this elaborate? Someone with a working knowlege of the law?
Either way, it would be stupid to push things that far. Comply, then complain to the authorities.

Security can place handcuffes on you if they feel that you would be a danger to them or yourself, but, and here it gets tricky... they can not take them off of you, only a Police Officer can, If security does take them off, it is considered false arrest and then you can sue the **** out of them.

I went through the so called security training for a artical I did security officers.

 

[jody]

If my money paid for it I will photograph it to heck with them. As one man proved to blow up a building you dont need pictures just a truck load of fertilizer.

 

[RObert Budding]

. . . even if its paid for with tax dollors or public donation it then becomes city property, and they can enforce laws or restrictions as the city sees fit.

But what law was being enforced? Can they make up restrictions on the spot as they see fit? can I see the documented restrictions? Anyway, I got my shots and I'll continue to do so. Which means that I'll be looking for bail money one day . . .

 

[woodphoto]

But what law was being enforced? Can they make up restrictions on the spot as they see fit? can I see the documented restrictions? Anyway, I got my shots and I'll continue to do so. Which means that I'll be looking for bail money one day . . .

I don't know the laws in your particular city, but they can be posted, but not always..
Always ask which rules are being violated.
Ask to see supervisors...they are usually smarter.
Call PD yourself to see if the security guard is correct.

The bottom line is if you can't stand there, they can restrict you from shooting there.

The rule I enforce are not posted, but they can be found at city hall in some book......

 

[Flyfisher Tom]

Here is where I disagree. In the conversation I had with my attorney friend, referred to above, he noted that some (many?) of those who seek careers in almost-law-enforcement do love authority and may be apt to try to prove it in any way they can if that authority is questioned. I think the exact quote was "Never tell a (rent-a)cop that he can't do something" or words to that effect.

I have to agree here ... even if you are in the legal right ...

As grandma used to say:

never argue with a man with a gun or a nightstick


😀

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

But this guard dog had no teeth. Rent-a-cops can't arrest you. Except for a citizens arrest and, as far as I know, I broke no laws.

You perhaps infringed on the Government Knows Best Act. Just be careful, otherwise, I hope you like to drink lots of water. 😱

 

[David Murphy]

Citizens arrest in the U.S. is a funny thing.... From what I've gathered it is basically toothless. And I have also been told that citizens arrest does not include physical restraint; i.e. a rent-a-cop who handcuffs you is bound for legal troubles of his own if you report it.
Can anyone with actual information about this elaborate? Someone with a working knowlege of the law?
Either way, it would be stupid to push things that far. Comply, then complain to the authorities.

There was a funny story a few years ago in the local paper about two long fueding neighbors arresting each other for some imagined offense and marching each other down to the local police station for a mutual booking.

In the USA photography in public places is legal. If someone tries to detain you they are breaking the law and are subject to criminal prosecution (as well as civil liability). That's what those hoards of photographers are doing chasing down celebs -- exercising their rights. If someone does try actually to detain you call the police.

 

[gareth]

Here is where I disagree. In the conversation I had with my attorney friend, referred to above, he noted that some (many?) of those who seek careers in almost-law-enforcement do love authority and may be apt to try to prove it in any way they can if that authority is questioned. I think the exact quote was "Never tell a (rent-a)cop that he can't do something" or words to that effect.

I agree with you to an extent. Yes those 5 quid an hour security guards often (but far from always) love their big boots and uniform. So if they are giving you a hard time, it's worth pointing out to them that you know exactly what their limits are. Many people assume they have real powers, and these guys know that and often behave accordingly.

 

[RObert Budding]

. . . Look at it like this, tax money pays for police cars, but you can't just get in and drive it for a while.....

I need to be clear - I was not using the convention center. I was merely capturing some of the photons that it was throwing off. I believe I would be in my rights to do the same with a police car. Driving the car is a whole lot different.

 

[John Rountree]

So, Woodphoto, my daughter, who lives in Santa Monica just e-mailed me a photo of my grandson swinging in one of your local parks. I know she didn't have a permit. Should I contact you privately with her contact information? As I want to be a good upstanding, and fearful American I don't want to do anything wrong. I think there should also be an additional charge of conspiracy that names my grandson Nathan in this very serious offense because he was gleeful and actually mugging for the camera. Since he is so young I suppose he will have to be considered an enemy combatatant and detained in a secret prison for a very long time. Man, I am really going to miss that kid.

 

[EmilGil]

Be careful in France though; if I'm not completely mistaken, the architect retains the copyright of a building and may/may not grant you the right to photograph it. I once heard of a statue in Philadelphia or so, where the artist forbid photographing of the object and local authorities (police etc) enforced this prohibition. Pretty weird if you ask me...

In Sweden, photography is permitted everywhere except for certain protected sites (where "no photography"-signs are clearly posted on the perimeter, i.e. military installations, airports etc) and on private property where you can shoot up until the site owner has informed you about the regulations (either through verbal communication, signs or other means). You are allowed to keep pictures taken before you were made aware of the prohibition.

 

[jaapv]

In Sweden, photography is permitted everywhere except for certain protected sites (where "no photography"-signs are clearly posted on the perimeter, i.e. military installations, airports etc) and on private property where you can shoot up until the site owner has informed you about the regulations (either through verbal communication, signs or other means). You are allowed to keep pictures taken before you were made aware of the prohibition.

Sounds like a rather civilized country to me....🙂

 

[EmilGil]

Sounds like a rather civilized country to me....🙂

Of course there are plenty of wannabe-cops who don't have a clue about the applicable laws...

 

[Ash]

EmilGil, that sounds very fair. It wouldn't go down very well in the UK or US since we don't like logical laws.

Digital cameras just can't be stopped, they are hidden in plain sight that people go for the obvious targets now.

I've taken photo's in places that clearly state no-photography. I even filmed part of my short film for an art unit in a shopping complex. We got away with it for about 10 minutes and as we were chatting through a second scene the guards came over and told us to clear off. Of course, they didn't ask for the DV tape, and didn't ban us. A few months later I took photo's in there with a Fed, and no-one even noticed. Strange since if you sit on the floor they will move you along within 2 minutes (this is proven).

Funny thing is, that shopping place has a sign on each entrance, basically "no digital cameras or video-recording". It mentions nothing about film-cameras so I assume everything up to large format is fine with them.

I've always acted pig-ignorant, polite and a little cocky, and a little charm goes a long way.

I'm also a longboarder so I love the challenge of private property (such as car parks) and whether I can get away with using them. The Outlet Village in Swindon has huge outdoor parking, smooth tarmac. Myself and a friend were cruising along in the empty one of three. A security guard tried to come up to me, of course I wasn't looking at him and had my music in, so accidentally didn't stop. The friend, when approached, did his sweet talking. The security guards said that weekends are too busy, but daytime in the week is fine so we could skate then and wouldn't be hassled. (This is the same shopping complex that the first year photography students are taken to photograph the exterior architecture, without hassle)

The same thing happened in Malborough, we were skating in a car park, and the guy came over, asked me and the friend to leave, with a smile on my face in a friendly voice I said no, and to tell me what laws I was breaking. Course I really meant to banter, and would leave soon enough since he was polite about it. Because I challenged it, however, he told us that after 6pm we could come back and skate all we liked.


I guess you need ignorance, ignore any signs as you enter private property, do your thing and leave before they approach you. I was taking photo's once, and it was 'no trespassing'. I hopped a fence moments before the security got out their patrol car, they just reversed out once they saw I was leaving. No chase, no hassle.

A week later there were huge metal fences and wire all around the property 😀

 

[canonetc]

Not sure if this was mentioned (I didn't read every post) but security can clear you only from private property. Sidewalks and streets are public property, and over that they have no jurisdiction.

Chris
canonetc