Collectors value

Räuber

Räuber

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I look through Ebay regularly and one sad truth is you can not have them all. 😅 From time to time I see Sonnar lenses that belong into a collectors hand. I'm very tempted to spend my own money again and again. But I will share some of those hidden treasures with you today. 🙈

www.ebay.de

Contax Zeiss IKONJena Sonnar 5cm F1.5 T Silver Film Camera Near Mint Condition | eBay

Depends on custom in your country also. For overall product details, refer to the product images and item specifics provided. We'll promptly provide you with the requested details. Rest assured, we'll go above and beyond to provide the best possible support.
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Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 with lowest serial after CZJ started T coating yet seen. Making this the first Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 with T coating. There are other lenses with T coating before this lens but those single lenses got their T coating later. This lens is one of the first batch of lenses that were officially anti reflection coated by CZJ. It is still unknown what is the serial of the very first lens that got T coating but this one is the one with the lowest serial of today.

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Objektiv Carl Zeiss Sonnar F/1.5 - 50mm T-Shirt #2553642. Gestell Contax | eBay

Carl Zeiss Sonnar-Objektiv T f/1,5 - 50 mm. Seriennummer: Nr. 2553642. Contax-Telemetriehalterung. Guter Allgemeinzustand. Es sind einige kleine Gebrauchsspuren vorhanden. Keine Kratzer auf der Linse, kein Abblättern, keine Trübung, kein Pilz. Der Membranring funktioniert ordnungsgemäß. Öl auf...
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Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 with lowest serial after CZJ started T coating yet again. This is from the second batch. This is the caveat about the T coating date. There were 2 production runs at the time CZJ started introducing T coating. So there are 2 serials blocks where we have a switch from uncoated lenses to single coated lenses. This is the lens with the lowest serial from the second batch produced at that time. Still it is not known what was the first lens in this serial block that was coated.

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VINTAGE ZEISS IKON CONTAX CAMERA Sonnar 1:1.5 F=5cm Lens GERMANY MADE | eBay

<p>Start your new project with the Zeiss Ikon Contax camera. With its stunning silver color and German craftsmanship, it is a beautiful work of art that will capture amazing photos. You will be pleased with the quality and performance of this camera set.</p><br /><p> SOLD THIS ITEM AS IS IN...
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That makes this lens the last uncoated Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 CZJ produced for now.

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Carl Zeiss Jena 5cm 50mm f1.5 T Sonnar Contax Rangefinder Lens RF #3001034 ðð 745051758202 | eBay

Entdecken Sie Carl Zeiss Jena 5cm 50mm f1.5 T Sonnar Contax Rangefinder Lens RF #3001034 ðð in der groÃen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
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This is the Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 with the lowest serial from East German production (CZJ). That makes this lens the first lens from CZJ post-war production.

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Zeiss Opton T Coated 50mm F1.5 Sonnar Contax RF Mount Lens - UK Dealer | eBay

Entdecken Sie Zeiss Opton T Coated 50mm F1.5 Sonnar Contax RF Mount Lens - UK Dealer in der groÃen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
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This is the Sonnar 50cm f/1,5 with the lowest serial from West German production (Opton-Zeiss). That makes this lens the first lens from Oberkochen post-war production.
 
Räuber said:
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Carl Zeiss Jena 5cm 50mm f1.5 T Sonnar Contax Rangefinder Lens RF #3001034 ðð 745051758202 | eBay

Entdecken Sie Carl Zeiss Jena 5cm 50mm f1.5 T Sonnar Contax Rangefinder Lens RF #3001034 ðð in der groÃen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
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This is the Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 with the lowest serial from East German production (CZJ). That makes this lens the first lens from CZJ post-war production.
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Do we know for certain that CZJ re-started production of lenses at 3,000,000 following WW2 in what eventually became the DDR in October 1949? I have lens CZJ 5cm f1.5 no. 2986046, but Thiele's book of CZJ lenses shows that records are missing for this serial number. Also, Thiele's book shows a batch of 15cm f1.5 IR Biotars with production date of April 1946 with 280 series serials, and numerous batches of 280 to 299 series lenses between October 1945 and August 1946. The first 300 series lenses show up as in March 1947as a batch of 5cm f3.5 Tessars in Exacta mount, about 2.5 years before the official founding of the DDR. Still, there are a lot of interesting things for sale at the moment! Thanks for posting.
 
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Räuber said:
Thank you Brian. Hacked is a good word for a lot of those WWII Sonnar lenses. It is a lot shorter than Frankenstein. 😄

About that missing lenses from WWII... I looked up my Excel sheets again and I think it is fine. There is no major issue here. It is WWII...
  • 47, 48, 49 = prototype batches of single or 2 lenses to test Super Parvo or ARRI
  • 50 = 100 ARRI (1 hacked seen)
  • 53 = 600 Contax
  • 55 = 300 ARRI
  • 57 = 100 Super Parvo
  • 59 = 1 Contax (maybe prototype)
  • 60 = 150 ARRI
  • 62 = 800 Contax
  • 66 = 60 ARRI
  • 68 = 2000 Leica (1 seen)
  • 70 = 1000 Contax
  • 71 = 100 Contax
Those prototype ones can be ignored since they will not show up anyway. A lot of ARRI Sonnars went missing but this is no surprise since those would be more likely be used at the battlefront of WWII and since ARRI Sonnars are not very searched for today. The Super Parvo batch is very small and the system is not very common today so those are extremely rare to find. There are still 2500 Contax missing. Brian you will likely have seen some of those batches. Quite a lot will suffer hacking done during and after the war. Some will suffer quality issues through Zeiss struggling with supply and replacement workers. Some might be what you call transition Sonnar lenses.
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dexdog said:
Do we know for certain that CZJ re-started production of lenses at 3,000,000 following WW2 in what eventually became the DDR in October 1949?
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Please disregard the Raüber quote.
Until the arrival of the Americans in Jena on april 13. Zeiss produced at 60% capacity dispite the general conditions, and they continued to produce after the Russians had relieved the Americans july 1. The Russians decided what was to be produced and it was given to them as war reparations, that is until october 1946 when the order was given to dismantle almost of the company's machinery and ship it to the Sovjet Union together with 274 employees.
This is the decisive event for Zeiss, they were left on average with 6% of their production means when they restarted production in march 1947. The Russians had left the factory and the management could now decide what to produce, but it was a tough start under these materiel circumstances, and on top of that the Americans had taken tons of documents and deported the top managers and scientific personel to the american occupation zone before they left Jena.
I have no reason to doubt that the production of photographic lenses started with no. 3000001 at this "new beginning"
 
What I was wondering about was the reference to East German production. CZJ was in the zone of Soviet occupation as JakobN pointed out. CZJ was producing lenses throughout the Soviet occupation. I have no problem with counting the start of new CZJ production in March 1947 after the factories were dismantled and shipped to Soviet Union in late 1946.
 
Zeiss started coating lenses before putting the "T" markings on the lens.
RIMG0045.jpg
some 14 years ago- I picked this Sonnar up from Ebay, was like Wax Paper and required my heavy-duty spanner to open. After cleaning- was surprised that all surfaces were hard-coated. I've worked on later coated lenses, 267x batch and found the inner coatings were soft. I do not believe it was coated after manufacture, and was contacted by a long-time expert that the coating equipment was installed in 1935 and that there was a record of a coated lens in the same batch, slightly earlier than mine.

I converted this one to LTM, but saved and marked the original Contax mount.
RIMG0051.jpg

L1002342.jpg
 
dexdog said:
What I was wondering about was the reference to East German production. CZJ was in the zone of Soviet occupation as JakobN pointed out. CZJ was producing lenses throughout the Soviet occupation. I have no problem with counting the start of new CZJ production in March 1947 after the factories were dismantled and shipped to Soviet Union in late 1946.
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The reference is Thiele's publication of the Zeiss archive, we are lucky to have that. I don't think we can expect to find detailed company information like that anywhere else, the two books on the history of Zeiss that I have consulted are more general.
 
I did not expect to start a discussion when I just tried to describe why I considered a single lens to have collectors value.

The first coated Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 might be the very first productive copy: 1.374.171. dexdog mentioned that this lens had been added coating. There are other single coated lenses not marked with a red T before the end of the war too. Then there are single lenses that are coated that have a red T on the name ring. I say single lenses because they seem like random copies from different production batches. In reality those lenses might be coated many month and years after they were build. After WWII you could pay to get it coated by CZJ. And then there is the start of coating for all Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 lenses. I tried to make it clear I mean this change in production when CZJ started to apply coating to all of these lenses.

This is the Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 with the lowest serial from East German production (CZJ). That makes this lens the first lens from CZJ post-war production.
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This was a huge stretch for me. Yes it is not exactly right. I just did not want to write as much text here as for the T coated lenses too. 😅 🙈 The history of those post-war Sonnars is full of transition lenses, American occupation, Soviet occupation, stolen parts, requisitioned production engines and documents and even people. And all of that even before the GDR was founded in East Germany.

It is a funny coincidence that new barrel design of the Sonnar lenses was introduced with the 3 million serial. There are lenses in the 2.9M range where you will see some design cues of the later redesign. Those 3M lenses where build from 1947 after the CZJ plant was requisitioned and transported to Krasnogorsk. But they were build in Jena by CZJ.

Techncially my quote is wrong. It is not the first lens lens from post-war East German production. 1945 CZJ had not reached the 3M mark yet. I could call it the "first" Sonnar from East German CZJ production after the Soviet requisition... (better, the "first" 3M Sonnar 5cm f/1,5).
 
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We love to discuss Sonnars.
Much of the history is lost- but we have the lenses in hand to look at and analyze.

My guess is Dexdog's 5cm F1.5 Sonnar, the very first one produced, now donated back to Zeiss- belonged to Dr Bertele Himself. Wouldn't you keep the #1 prototype? When the coating equipment was installed, I imagine he said- let's try it on this one. I'm thrilled to have one from the same batch.

What I have found, having pairs of Sonnars from two different batches (1909xxx, 255xxxx), one coated and the other uncoated: the Bloom of the uncoated lenses bring performance close to the coated batch mate. Bloom on lenses is what started the quest for a reliable coating process in the first place.
 
I've had several really nice old tessars and sonnars over the years, especially on medium and large format, that had classic bloom and they show that level of performance that you mention Brian.

Especially my 5x8 f/6.3 Bausch + Lomb licensed Tessar from just prior to WW1: in barrel, with a half million (well, perhaps not _quite_ that many 😉 ) aperture blades, it's still the most lovely LF lens I've ever used. Used with a polaroid shutter it's been a delight on 4x5.
 
dexdog said:
What I was wondering about was the reference to East German production. CZJ was in the zone of Soviet occupation as JakobN pointed out. CZJ was producing lenses throughout the Soviet occupation. I have no problem with counting the start of new CZJ production in March 1947 after the factories were dismantled and shipped to Soviet Union in late 1946.
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I have dived deeper into my books and found the following in one of them:
March 13. 1947 the leader of Zeiss Hugo Schrade informed that the dismanteling by the Russians was finished at that reconstruction could begin. Here I have to correct myself, the management of Zeiss could not decide what to produce, it was still the Russians who decided what productions should be established first and the very first was photo lenses. By november 25. they had produced 20 000.
Book: Wolfgang Schumann, Carl Zeiss Jena einst und jetzt, 1962 page 636.
 
I am, in a word, envious. Of all this.

Briefly, one of the big problems I've encountered with buying photo gear off Ebay, is the number of items that have been home-tinkered with by well-meaning but technically inept owners. Rolleiflex TLRs are often victims of this urge to fix or improve (as someone who once sold me a faulty TLR said by way of excuse when I returned it as unusable) at home, but I'm sure many Contax cameras, even with their complex and complicated shutters, have suffered as well.

Surely nothing vintage by Contax comes cheap nowadays, so if I were buying, I would make sure to query whether or not the item has been repaired, and if yes whether by a skilled professional or a hopeful amateur. The differences between the two can cost a lot!
 
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At risk of diverting the thread, if you want history look up David Jentz's work on the Kodak Retina series. He has unearthed a truly gobsmacking amount of information. I think my favourite is that you can actually visit the bunker that a batch of late 1930s lenses and shutters spent WW2 hidden in before being used in 1946-7.
 
Re eBay, I think it is wise to know whether your chances of getting good gear are high or not. It seems old Rolleis are both in demand and butchered. Not something to buy sight unseen. The Jupiter lenses can be chancy, FSU QC was not rigorous and then there is the chance that some devious person has created a Frankenlens. My only help has been to check the seller's track record and the seller's inventory. If it is a lens I am looking at has the seller been selling lenses for a length of time longer than a summer vacation? There are good buys out there but caution is the watchword. And believe it or not, that wonderful item you are looking at is not the only one made. There will always be another and possibly at a better price. Keep that in mind. I have a beautiful Cooke Amotal. I shopped for months before I found a good, clean one I felt safe buying. There were as many as 16 on the market at one time. It is more so with the Jupiters. There will always be another. Just be cautious.
 
I took a risk recently and bought a somewhat scruffy user 1938 Rolleiflex Automat type 2 off the Bay for 350.00, but then again, it was from a major player in used cameras - Roberts - that has a solid reputation and a good return policy. I also ran a roll of XP2+ through to have the lab check it quickly:

test.jpg

Looks like if I do my part, it will do it's part just fine. But then, I'm a sucker for a 75/3.5 uncoated Zeiss Tessar 🤣 I have a roll of Fuji 400H color in now. That will be a fun test 😎
 
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Appareil photo argentique ZEISS IKON CONTAX III 544/24 objectif Sonnar 1:2 f 50 | eBay

Entdecken Sie Appareil photo argentique ZEISS IKON CONTAX III 544/24 objectif Sonnar 1:2 f 50 in der groÃen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
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Erliest Sonnar 5cm f2 with black ring I have seen so far. It seems it has a slight rainbow coating effect that can be seen rarely on very old Sonnar lenses. I'm not sure if this is separation or some kind of pre-T single coating.

200€ is a bargain. I would double or triple the price. You can find 3 to 4 other offers online and most of them are over 1000€. The shape is not pretty but for this price you can give it a nice CLA and make it shine again.
 
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Zeiss Ikon Contax IIa mit Carl Zeiss Sonnar 1:1,5/5cm Sucherkamera #2395161-35 | eBay

Entdecken Sie Zeiss Ikon Contax IIa mit Carl Zeiss Sonnar 1:1,5/5cm Sucherkamera #2395161-35 in der groÃen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
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That is one of those irregular coated chrome Sonnar 5cm f/1,5. It has a red T engraved on its name ring. CZJ started engraving a red T later. But there are those earlier lenses that got single coating too. The explanation is pretty simple. After WWII there was a program to send in an uncoated lens and let CZJ apply the T-coating on your lens. It was not done a lot. So this kind of coated earlier lens are rare. I have only seen 5 of them over the years. There are more regular production chrome Sonnars with max F11 and red T nevertheless. Only collectors might notice.
 
Speaking of collectors value I looked through the offers of the coming Leica auctions. Let's discuss them briefly.

www.leitz-auction.com

Leica IIIc chrome with Sonnar 1.5/5cm | A01089

Early war-time version in very good condition, rangefinder with good contrast but the shutter curtains need attention, delivered to the Italian Leica dealer Cattaneo on 25.11.1941, with interesting RF coupled 1.5/5cm lens with front ring engraved 'Carl Z…
www.leitz-auction.com www.leitz-auction.com

One of those mysterious Sonnar 5,8cm f/1,5 LTM lenses. The name ring states 5cm but it is obviously one of them. It is to large to be a 5cm Sonnar and all the engravings and the whole build is the same as the lenses we already know. Made for the black market after WWII.

www.leitz-auction.com

Leica-Sonnar f. Leica M39 1.5/5.8cm * | A01107

Rare interesting rangefinder coupled lens for Leica M39, in very good condition, showing some light cleaning marks and typical bubbles in glass, with both caps, this uncoated 1407xxx. lens series (probably about 500 pieces produced) might have been assem…
www.leitz-auction.com www.leitz-auction.com

The second black market Sonnar 5,8cm f/1,5 LTM in this auction. This time with Leica-Sonnar on the name ring. No CZJ Sonnar.

www.leitz-auction.com

Carl Zeiss Jena f. Leica M39 Sonnar 2/8.5cm | A01463

Nice post-war fast portrait lens in original Leica M39 mount, in very good condition, clean optics only showing few light cleaning marks and typical bubbles in the glass.
www.leitz-auction.com www.leitz-auction.com

A black market LTM Sonnar 8,5cm f/2. From the same origin as the 5,8cm Sonnars. Even the name ring is not made by CZJ.

www.leitz-auction.com

Carl Zeiss Jena f. Leica M39 T Sonnar 1.5/5cm * | A01332

A very rare Sonnar in original RF-coupled Leica M39 mount made in Germany shortly after WWII, in good condition with good T-coated optics only showing some light cleaning marks, the black finish of the front ring has been polished off, with both caps.
www.leitz-auction.com www.leitz-auction.com

A black market Sonnar 5cm f/1,5. Red dot aperture mark, unpainted name ring and all engravings have the wrong fonts. The same origin as the 5,8cm Sonnars, no Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar.

www.leitz-auction.com

Neubert Neuca Jena | A01173

One of the rarest Leica copies ever made, post-war Leica copy Neuca, made by Franz Neubert in Jena. The camera represents a loose copy of the Leica II, with several major design differences, like removable back (with matching '15' engraved), finder and r…
www.leitz-auction.com www.leitz-auction.com

Finally an authentic wartime Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 LTM with T-coating from CZJ. Comes with a rare camera.

www.leitz-auction.com

Carl Zeiss Jena f. Leica M39 Sonnar T 2/5cm | A01245

Very rare Sonnar in original rangefinder-coupled and collapsible M39 mount, in very good condition, early coated optics with some haze and cleaning marks, from a small batch of 200 post-war lenses delivered on 13.09.1947, note the unusual high-polished f…
www.leitz-auction.com www.leitz-auction.com

Another authentic Sonnar 5cm f/2 LTM with T-coating from CZJ. Those collapsible Sonnars with an attached LTM adapter were made at the end of WWII on Soviet request. This one has a small m on the focus scale and looks very pretty.

www.leitz-auction.com

Carl Zeiss Jena Contax Jena 'Ivory' | A01186

One of the very few original Contax Jena with a painted ivory finish, from the usual serial number range 279XX, with matching Sonnar 2/5cm no.3104785, original brown leather covering, camera and lens in used, original condition, speeds not 100% accurate.…
www.leitz-auction.com www.leitz-auction.com

Another very very rare Sonnar 5cm f/2 from CZJ. Those ebony Contax cameras and lenses were made in an attempt to try out some new color schemes by CZJ after the war. They go for insane prices most of the time. No fake.

www.leitz-auction.com

Carl Zeiss Jena f. Contax Sonnar 2/8.5cm | A01387

Extremely early black/nickel fast portrait lens for Contax, from the first batch of production (nos.1430351-1430550), in good condition, very good optics, with both caps.
www.leitz-auction.com www.leitz-auction.com

An authentic black Nickel Sonnar 8,5cm f/2 for Contax from Carl Zeiss Jena. The very first version of the 85mm Sonnar. Very sought-after.

www.leitz-auction.com

GOI Jupiter-16 2/5cm (5.2cm) OB103 prototype * | A01197

An interesting rare prototype lens designed in 1952 and finished in 1953, it is based on a Zeiss design and represents an upgraded version of the ZK 2/5cm (ZK = Sonnar Krasnogorsk), covering full frame 35mm, in near-mint condition, with clean optics, inc…
www.leitz-auction.com www.leitz-auction.com

And at last a GOI prototype of the Jupiter-16 lens. Those GOI prototypes look amazing and often come in a nice wooden box. Historical important item.
 
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