Comparing shutter times using different cameras

[seany65]

Hello all,

I'd like to ask if anyone has any opinions on testing the shutter of one camera against another, to see if the speeds are ok?

I don't have a mobile phone and there has been a "falling out" with a shop to which I would've taken various cameras to have the speeds checked, so I'm left with checking speeds by comparing different cameras.

I recently bout a Rolleiflex SL26 and the 1/2 second speed took "one elephant" for the diaphragm to close down and open up after pressing the shutter button. I've spent most of my life thinking that it takes 1 second to say "one elephant", so I thought the 1/2 second speed was slow, so I preprared to send it back and I ordered another example from a different seller, but then I had a good brainwave (difficult to do when you only have two braincells), and compared all of the SL26's speeds to those on my Nikon F301, and both 1/2 second speeds basically matched, which surprised me a little for the reason I mentioned earlier.

I then checked the 1/2 second speeds of my Voigtlander Brillant f4.5 and Altissa Altix III and they took "one elephant" to close then open.

What I'm wondering is: would the the flipping up and down of the mirror on the two slr's make it look like the shutter was taking longer than it actually does to open and close, and so comparing them to cameras that don't have mirrors give a false impression of the same marked speeds?

There's no point opening the back of the SL26 as the shutter button can't pressed down when the back is open and the F301's shutter doesn't open and close when the back is open, although he shutter sounds like it fires properly.

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[Godfrey]

I use the old, old method of testing shutter speeds: I get a stepwise grayscale chart, fill the frame with it, set the lens to ONE aperture, and, using a light meter, set the illumination to give me the range of shutter speeds from max to min on the camera, using a known-good hand-held incident meter. I then process the film and look to see if all frames have the same density. If they do, the shutter is consistent and well calibrated. If they vary, I then know which speeds are off and by how much. If they're more than 2/3 of a stop off in the middle of the range (where most exposures are made) or 1 stop off (at the ends of the range), I have the shutter serviced.

If a digital camera, same test but just compare the frames in Lightroom. 🙂

G

 

[shawn]

If you can find one I use the Phocron XA. Can test overall shutter time as well as measure each curtain. They went out of production a couple of years ago and were a great deal. I think there are other similar products out there.

 

[seany65]

shawn, Whatever that thing is, it looks expensive. I've just done a quick search on picclick.co.uk (ebay, but all results on one long, wide page), and there were no results.

Godfrey, Thanks for the info, I have no way of doing that as I'm reliant on commercial processing.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

I have an older Calumet shutter speed tester that I used on Leicas, Pentaxes, Nikons and LF gear. A couple of things. On old mechanical shutters, lubricants would gum up from non-use resulting in slower shutter speeds than rated. And almost no mechanical shutter from the golden age of camera-magic (Leica M6, Pentax K1000, Nikon FM2, Prontors, Compurs etc. etc.) actually produced 1/1000 of a second. All were under.

But: does it matter? The answer is generally "no" in my experience. Shutter errors of up to 1/3 of a stop were barely noticeable in the finished prints, when all was said and done. I had a Pentax LX that had an electronically controlled shutter. Magnificent beast. Accurate and repeatable to a couple of 1/10,000ths of a second. Were those negatives more "printable" than those from my comparatively sloppy mechanical M6 shutter? Nope.

Old mechanical shutters often had a "slow speed escapement" or a set of clock-work gears that governed longer exposures (1/30 sec and slower). Testing might tell you whether all the slow speeds were off, or whether there was a particular shutter speed that you had to watch out for until you could get a CLA from a competent tech. But mostly, just shoot the thing. Your negatives will tell you whether you've got a big problem with the mechanical nature of your gear.

 

[Muggins]

As Benjamin says above, it matters less than you think, especially if you are shooting b&w film with lots of exposure latitude. I dimly recall that the factory tolerances on Compur shutters were +/- 1/3 of a stop, so your brand new fresh out of the box camera could have had a top speed running at anything between 1/334 and 1/666 of a second.

 

[shawn]

shawn, Whatever that thing is, it looks expensive. I've just done a quick search on picclick.co.uk (ebay, but all results on one long, wide page), and there were no results.

Godfrey, Thanks for the info, I have no way of doing that as I'm reliant on commercial processing.

It was actually a crazy good deal. The tester with light source, remote sensors and the 3d printed stands and parts were all $205 brand new. There are other shutter testers on ebay too.

 

[seany65]

Thanks to everyone for the replies and the info.

I'm not so bothered if speeds are 1/3 of a stop slow as I only use print film and even then I don't use Ektar, I just want to know if the slow speeds on a Voigt. Brillant f4.5, an Altissa Altix III, and a couple of Rollei SL26's are less than 1 stop slow or not, so that I can try and take it into account if they are.

 

[Godfrey]

...Godfrey, Thanks for the info, I have no way of doing that as I'm reliant on commercial processing.

No reason that would stop you. All you need to do is make the exposures and then have the film processed and not cut so you can examine the film with a loupe.

G

 

[BernardL]

What I'm wondering is: would the the flipping up and down of the mirror on the two slr's make it look like the shutter was taking longer than it actually does to open and close, and so comparing them to cameras that don't have mirrors give a false impression of the same marked speeds?

There's no point opening the back of the SL26 as the shutter button can't pressed down when the back is open and the F301's shutter doesn't open and close when the back is open, although he shutter sounds like it fires properly.

If you look at the camera with open back, you'll probably spot a small lever that signals to the body that the back is closed. Just push it (other hand, assistant, small piece of folded paper) and you can watch the true opening of the shutter. You may also need to simulate the film advance to be able to actuate the shutter. The little P&S cameras with auto film loading are more difficult, maybe impossible to fool.

Borrow a metronome (or install an app on your phone). 120bpm will give you a feeling for what 1/2s really is.

 

[Jonathan R]

There's a fully documented thread on Photrio about how to build an electronic shutter tester very cheaply.

 

[seany65]

Thanks for all the new replies and the info.

Godfrey, I see.

BernardL, Hmmm, I'm pretty sure I shouldn't be allowed to poke about inside any camera. They take their lives into their hands by even allowing me to put a film in them. I did have a look at some 120bpm clips on youtube and fired the shutters of my Altix III and Brillant f4.5. it's hard to synchronise firing the shutter at the exact time the pointer touches the edge of the triangle and the click happens, but from what I can tell, the Brillant's 1/2 second is a tidgy bit longer than the Altix III's, and the Altix seems a tidgy bit closer to the beat.

JonathanR, Thanks for the link. I've had a quick look, but from what I can tell the work seems a bit beyond me.

 

[DownUnder]

A fair few years ago I was loaned one of those high-accuracy shutter testing gizmos the camera repair shops use. I tested all my film cameras, and I was disheartened (but quickly recovered!) that each and every camera I owned had differing shutter speeds, some up to one-third off and mostly slow.

Oddly, my Nikkormats were slow from 1 second to 1/15 but fast from 1/30 to 1/250. Again oddly, 1/500 was slow but 1/1000 was fast. Again, one of those strange mysteries.

I decided to basically just let things stay as they were.

Now I'm (mostly) digital, but I have no intention on repeating all (my friend still have the tester) with my collection of "D' Nikons. At my age it's all too much for an old duffer, and basically, my Nikons have electronic shutters, so it's likely that all speeds are entirely accurate. But then who knows?

 

[JoeV]

There's a fully documented thread on Photrio about how to build an electronic shutter tester very cheaply.

Those audio-based shutter speed detectors may work okay for conventional curtain shutters, but can’t really tell the difference with, say, leaf shutters and variable-width slit shutters like with Speed Graphics, since with those kinds of shutters the sound is pretty much the same regardless of the speed selected. Also, it would be nice to measure both curtains independently.

I’m certain with the availability of inexpensive optical sensors someone is making an optical-based shutter tester, but I haven’t personally shopped for one.

 

[Fraser]

use a dslr on B looking through shutter of the camera to be tested, then compare.

 

[Beemermark]

I'm not so bothered if speeds are 1/3 of a stop slow as I only use print film and even then I don't use Ektar, I just want to know if the slow speeds on a Voigt. Brillant f4.5, an Altissa Altix III, and a couple of Rollei SL26's are less than 1 stop slow or not, so that I can try and take it into account if they are.

Shoot a roll of film and determine if it's off. As others have posted (I have an old Calumet testers) most cameras, even those recently serviced, are off at least 1/3 of a stop. And I always wonder on these types of posts- do you ever use speeds below 1/20th?

 

[Coldkennels]

Those audio-based shutter speed detectors may work okay for conventional curtain shutters, but can’t really tell the difference with, say, leaf shutters and variable-width slit shutters like with Speed Graphics, since with those kinds of shutters the sound is pretty much the same regardless of the speed selected. Also, it would be nice to measure both curtains independently.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the thread @Jonathan R linked to - Build a shutter tester for Focal Plane shutters - Cheap, Easy & it Works - about building an optical shutter speed tester using lasers and receivers to show curtain movement?

I have a friend who's big into Arduinos, the Raspberry Pi, and so on. I might see if he fancies another project.

I always wonder on these types of posts- do you ever use speeds below 1/20th?

I own a tripod, so... yes. Even handheld, I can get down to 1/8th of a second with a 28mm lens and have a smooth shot (although my hit rate isn't perfect).

I didn't realise how much I used 1/20 and below until I bought a Leica Ic and found myself getting caught out by the lack of a slow speed mechanism over and over again. I've loosely considered buying a HEBOO to keep in my camera bag but that's a bit daft even by my standards.

 

[Godfrey]

Shoot a roll of film and determine if it's off. As others have posted (I have an old Calumet testers) most cameras, even those recently serviced, are off at least 1/3 of a stop. And I always wonder on these types of posts- do you ever use speeds below 1/20th?

(bolded) ... actually, yes: quite often. Not too often hand-held, but occasionally that too. More often with digital capture than with film (because I can check the results on the fly easily) but with both for sure.

G

 

[shawn]

Shoot a roll of film and determine if it's off. As others have posted (I have an old Calumet testers) most cameras, even those recently serviced, are off at least 1/3 of a stop. And I always wonder on these types of posts- do you ever use speeds below 1/20th?

Yes, also the errors may not just be on the low end. In my testing I also see errors on the faster speeds and sometimes a lot of variability on the fast speeds. One of my cameras was slow at 1/2000 (about half stop) but at 1/1000 was all over the place. Sometimes slow, sometimes fast.

 

[CMur12]

Godfrey, Thanks for the info, I have no way of doing that as I'm reliant on commercial processing.

A roll of slide film, using Godfrey's method, would illustrate very well the accuracy of your shutter speeds.

Commercial E6 processing would give great results.

- Murray