Congratulations to all Americans!

[dfoo]

...
If the US health system were so poor, you would not see Canadian politicians coming here for their procedures, instead of waiting for Canadian government care. Google Danny Williams’ Heart Surgery.

Please become more informed of why he went to the US. Here is a hint. Its not because the procedure is not available in Canada, or even because of waiting lists...

 

[dfoo]

...
The vast majority of Americans want to stay with what made America what it is today. ...

Guns, slaves, and civil war?

 

[splitimageview]

Yes, I know the reason, he wanted a better alternative than what was available in Canada. In his own words:

"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."

http://bit.ly/bZkqTK

 

[dfoo]

Yes, I know the reason, he wanted a better alternative than what was available in Canada. In his own words:

"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."

http://bit.ly/bZkqTK

As I said, get better informed before using this as an argument that the US healthcare system is all that.

The procedure he got IS available in Canada.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/02/23/canadian-health-care-survives-danny-williams-surgery/

"But the reality appears to be the opposite of what I feared. Williams needed an operation on his mitral valve. His office admits the procedure was, in fact, available in Canada. It’s more than that, though: Canadian cardiac surgeons happen to be renowned for their expertise in valve repair."

 

[splitimageview]

Guns, slaves, and civil war?

Not worthy of a response.

America became the leading economic power when it overtook Britain in the late 1800s. This was not due to government control over its citizens; in fact, it was due to liberty, freedom, opportunity and self-initiative, self-reliance, not reliance on government.

 

[splitimageview]

As I said, get better informed before using this as an argument that the US healthcare system is all that.

It's but one example. He wanted the best, in his own words. Someone who does the procedure all the time.

I'm quite well informed, but thanks for your concern. 🙂

 

[dfoo]

^ Obviously.

 

[Spoks]

1. You are correct, the Constitution has been trampled on with regards to the 2nd Amendment.

2. Where people live is but one aspect of 'envy.' One can envy what America has and offers, yet not live here.

3. I'll take free enterprise solutions every time. I do not trust government, they cannot do things efficiently, and without competition quality goes down, costs go up, and the only way to contain costs is rationing.

I for one do not want to pay for the health care costs of those who mis-manage on their own health. How long will it be before I'm paying for someone else's nose job because the government has deemed it pre-existing?

The bottom line: Americans reject this by landslide margins. We do not want to turn into a Euro nanny state. The vast majority of Americans want to stay with what made America what it is today. In fact, many of them would just as soon get rid of the other bankrupt entitlements while we are at it.

1)
I would be cool about any amendment violation of a almost 250 years old law. We are too. Our oldest law, from the Viking Age, says; 'a man is a man, a word is a word'. It is the foundation of our 'Law of Agreements'. But has no practical value today. To mention one example.

2)
What is there to 'envy' the Americans? The high living standard? But isn't health care cost a part of 'the cost of living'? Or interest on the huge US federal (and state) debt? A high GDP/capita does not tell all when 6 - 6% of GDP goes to serving public debt.

What I do envy the Americans is the beauty of your country. The deserts, the mountains and the national parks. -But I can't afford to live there. I have no job, but I have health care.

3)
Well, here we disagree. We Europeans have good experiences with our government operations. If we arn't satisfied we elect politicians that rectify what is wrong. The owners of private businesses thinks it is just excellent that just about everything is 'privatised'. - This is indeed what the political struggle is all about; 'who's gonna own things': The people or private persons and enterprises. I think it is dangerous to stick to just one dogma here. It is better to be flexible and find the best solution for the people.

My opinion?

That just about everything from pizza parlours to steel mills shall be private, but that health care (like in Norway), banks, insurance companies (like in France), trains & planes (like in Germany) should - at least, be party owned by the government. This should represent no major hindrance to a 'free private enterprise'.

I think that the new Health Care Bill is a major victory for the American people. Not the least for the poor, who are in majority in USA today. But everybody. That USA has a HIV/AIDS rate six times higher than - say, Scandinavia, tells that a good health care system that incorporates all benefits all.

 

[40oz]

The bottom line: Americans reject this by landslide margins.

Statements like this are laughable.

 

[Roger Hicks]

1. You are correct, the Constitution has been trampled on with regards to the 2nd Amendment.

2. Where people live is but one aspect of 'envy.' One can envy what America has and offers, yet not live here.

3. I'll take free enterprise solutions every time. I do not trust government, they cannot do things efficiently, and without competition quality goes down, costs go up, and the only way to contain costs is rationing.

I for one do not want to pay for the health care costs of those who mis-manage on their own health. How long will it be before I'm paying for someone else's nose job because the government has deemed it pre-existing?

The bottom line: Americans reject this by landslide margins. We do not want to turn into a Euro nanny state. The vast majority of Americans want to stay with what made America what it is today. In fact, many of them would just as soon get rid of the other bankrupt entitlements while we are at it.

1 And the creation of West Virginia. I have never met anyone who has been able to explain to me how this was legally created.

2 What do you think people envy about America?

3 Being poor is not the same thing as mismanaging your health.

4 No, you don't take free enterprise solutions every time. Do you want the United States to be guarded by foreign mercenaries instead of its own patriotic armed forces? Closer to home, do you want your local police force to be run as a for-profit organization? Of course not. Probably not your local school, either. To many, health is as much a responsibility of the state as security or education.

5 Fairly clearly your phrases 'vast majority' and 'landslide margins' are inaccurate, or (slender) majorities would not vote in from time to time Democrats who have made no secret that they would like a national health service, and it wouldn't have been passed into law.

6 'Nanny state'? This from a citizen of a country where the government tells you where you can and can't go? No-one ever told me I couldn't go to Cuba, for example. Or from a country where the drinking age was federally raised by dubious means (threat of withholding highway funds) to 21? We all tend to assume that the country were we were brought up personifies the natural order of things, but it ain't so. All countries have their good and bad points. To most Europeans, and indeed to many Americans -- I'd cheerfully hazard 'most' -- the lack in the USA of a national health care system was one of its worst bad points. So was/is a callous disregard for the poor: "It's their fault."

7 As for what made America the leading economic power in the late 19th century, your response to dfoo is only one rather weak and doctrinaire explanation. You said:

America became the leading economic power when it overtook Britain in the late 1800s. This was not due to government control over its citizens; in fact, it was due to liberty, freedom, opportunity and self-initiative, self-reliance, not reliance on government.

An alternative explanation is a vast country, full of national resources, with hardly any population (by modern standards) which was simply and systematically stolen from that population. Pile on top of this an absolute disregard for the workforce and the environment, and it points to a Stalinist talent for mismanagement: otherwise the United States would be a lot richer today.

Britain's rise to industrial pre-eminence, as a result of being the seat of the Industrial Revolution, was aided by the same disregard for the workforce and for the environment, but by comparison with the United States, Britain simply ran out of resources at around the same time that the workers started to demand (with reason) a fairer share of the pie.

Cheers,

R.

 

[splitimageview]

Where do I begin?

Rasmussen:

62% of mainstream voters think state lawsuits challenging the federal requirement are a good idea

70% angry at Federal Government's Policies

54% of voters oppose the health care plan

43% think the cost of prescription drugs will go up under the new law (only 23% think costs will go down)

68% believe the nation is heading down the wrong track

59% say most in congress will NOT understand the health care plan before they vote on it

CBS: 76% say the disapprove of Congress. Only 14% say they approve

 

[dfoo]

Just goes to show that the majority of the american public are morons. After all, how many approved of the war in Iraq and Bush?

 

[splitimageview]

Yes! Only 53 posts before Bush was mentioned. Now I can collect on my wager...

More later. I'm at work trying to make money to pay for the newly insured.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Where do I begin?

Rasmussen:

62% of mainstream voters think state lawsuits challenging the federal requirement are a good idea

70% angry at Federal Government's Policies

54% of voters oppose the health care plan

43% think the cost of prescription drugs will go up under the new law (only 23% think costs will go down)

68% believe the nation is heading down the wrong track

59% say most in congress will NOT understand the health care plan before they vote on it

CBS: 76% say the disapprove of Congress. Only 14% say they approve

Well, just as you prefer private enterprise to public, I have greater faith in representative democracy than in opinion polls.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Spoks]

62% of mainstream voters think state lawsuits challenging the federal requirement are a good idea

then the 38% understand that such legal action is fruitless.

70% angry at Federal Government's Policies

They have all the reason to. Not on the Health Care issue, though.

54% of voters oppose the health care plan

No wonder when a 2 trillion dollar industry has hammered in it's message. But it could not go on anymore. This shows what enormous victory this bill was.

43% think the cost of prescription drugs will go up under the new law (only 23% think costs will go down)

They will go up! Or at least, the medic industry will try to increase their prices. The real issue is; what will the US government do with that?

68% believe the nation is heading down the wrong track

Agree. But the new Health Care Bill is still a good thing. Could we see US troops pull out of Iraq and Afganistan (Saudi Arabia, South Korea etc) and a real wash-out of Wall Street, it would be just fine.

59% say most in congress will NOT understand the health care plan before they vote on it

But still they will understand enough to make a intelligent vote on it.

CBS: 76% say the disapprove of Congress. Only 14% say they approve

I would agree again, - but not regarding the new health care bill.

So...

None of these statistical results points to any 'landslide' opposition to the new health care bill.

 

[dfoo]

Yes! Only 53 posts before Bush was mentioned. Now I can collect on my wager...

Is Bush the new Godwin's law?

 

[antiquark]

4 No, you don't take free enterprise solutions every time. Do you want the United States to be guarded by foreign mercenaries instead of its own patriotic armed forces? ... To many, health is as much a responsibility of the state as security or education.

One simple argument for universal health care is that it increases the pool of healthy young people who can serve in the armed forces. I can't see how even a Republican can argue with that point.

6 'Nanny state'? This from a citizen of a country where the government tells you where you can and can't go? No-one ever told me I couldn't go to Cuba, for example. Or from a country where the drinking age was federally raised by dubious means (threat of withholding highway funds) to 21?

"Nanny state" is an insult thrown around by people who want to control the minute details of how everyone else lives their lives. It's a good example of psychological projection. The term "cognitive dissonance" means nothing to the right-wingers!

 

[David Murphy]

Here's a glimpse as to the end-game of European stateism, Greece (they are near default), and it seems their high-minded EU friends won't keep them on the dole:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=awgDP17rsJ70

By the way, this may also lead to the failure of the Euro, the crown jewel of European unity. But, ....I suppose this is all Bush's fault right!

Margert Thatcher, the greatest European leader of modern times had it right when she said:

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money [to spend]."

It's already happening here, and may in fact have happen before the "Health Care Reform" bill even takes effect, if it's not repealed or thrown out in court before then (and it may well be).

By the way (unlike many of the supporters here of Obama care) I've lived in Europe and Canada and had extensive interaction with the health care systems there. Frankly they suck compared to what we have here. I have European friends that travel to the US at their own great expense to see American doctors and Canadian friends that complain to me constantly about the quality of care.

If the Obama health care take-over ever actually occurs, whether you are on the left or right, Americans won't like it. That much I'm really certain of. In fact sometimes I think we should try more of these Utopian left-wing schemes just so the population can get a thorough drubbing in the consequences of their failure and hopefully learn something.

 

[Spoks]

European Nanny State!? Ha, ha!

Try to spell some fresh words refering to body openings in this forum and you are stopped by a electronic nanny. Just like these pip noises that blurs the bad mouths of people speaking on US TV.

A typical European TV news report is not for the weak hearted regarding bad words. Un-nannied, I can promise you.

 

[David Murphy]

6 'Nanny state'? This from a citizen of a country where the government tells you where you can and can't go? No-one ever told me I couldn't go to Cuba, for example. Or from a country where the drinking age was federally raised by dubious means (threat of withholding highway funds) to 21? We all tend to assume that the country were we were brought up personifies the natural order of things, but it ain't so. All countries have their good and bad points. To most Europeans, and indeed to many Americans -- I'd cheerfully hazard 'most' -- the lack in the USA of a national health care system was one of its worst bad points. So was/is a callous disregard for the poor: "It's their fault."

R.

I'll bet most Americans here don't realize that in many (if not all - I've not been to all) European countries one has to register with the police when you move. In some other countries one also has to register with the Church (these countries all have national churches, despite the general lack of interest in what they stand for - witness the previous poster remarks). One must also carry "papers" with you and present them on demand to authorities. This is strong-armed statism and we just don't pine to that sort of thing here.