If 'cleaning up the mess of the previous party' means incurring debt at a pace 2.5x faster, then yes, the socialists are definitely 'cleaning up.'
With a track record like this, who needs either of 'em?
This is why Americans want limited government. But it may be too late.
With a track record like this, who needs either of 'em?
This is why Americans want limited government. But it may be too late.
antiquark
Derek Ross
Look at the charts! The big ramp-ups didn't happen with Democrats.
Sorry, this is not a Democrat vs. Republican match for me.
As I said, they are all the same. They are all worthless, some moreso than others. The end result is the same.
The treasury stats are what they are. Going back to 2001, the average is $41B/m in debt as compared to $104B/m.
Neither is laudable, as I said earlier. The recent pace is frighteningly accelerated, and that's entirely on the new administration. They own this spending, they own this bill outright. Hopefully this fact will ultimately strangle them.
As I said, they are all the same. They are all worthless, some moreso than others. The end result is the same.
The treasury stats are what they are. Going back to 2001, the average is $41B/m in debt as compared to $104B/m.
Neither is laudable, as I said earlier. The recent pace is frighteningly accelerated, and that's entirely on the new administration. They own this spending, they own this bill outright. Hopefully this fact will ultimately strangle them.
David Murphy
Veteran
Antiquark, you're missing something crucially important in your analysis. The US Congress was almost entirely Democrat over the time frame you're discussing - only a fraction of those years had Republican majorities. Unlike Canada and many other countries, in the USA the President can be from the minority party. Also Congress by-in-large controls spending.
Needless to say Republican administrations have also been irresponsible spenders as well. That's one reason we now have a Tea Party Party - they hope to put the brakes on this (I hope they do too).
By the way, congratulations to your country for electing a solid conservative like Steve Harper - many of us here may need to seek asylum in Canada soon the way things are going here under the Obama regime.
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
Not wanting to rub anyone's face in the dirt any more or indulge in jingoistic flagwaving, I'm wondering if there's something much bigger happening in this time (and I don't just mean the Health Bill).
We have past evidence of the eventual decay and collapse of Roman Imperialism/Empire, British Imperialism/Empire, Russian Imperialism/Empire, plus some earlier ones.
Are we seeing the start of the collapse of American "Imperialism" (read that how you like - "influence" might be a better word) and if so what will rise to fill the vacuum? Assuredly something will. Will it be Chinese Imperialism? Imperialism can be economic - it doesn't necessarily have to do with 'territory'.
I'm asking, not to "dump" on our American friends, but to pose a question that could have implications for all. The breakdown of elements in society and the economy in the USA are obviously very serious issues for many RFFers in their capacity as citizens of the USA, regardless of their political leaning. Are there warnings contained in that for the rest of the world?
We have past evidence of the eventual decay and collapse of Roman Imperialism/Empire, British Imperialism/Empire, Russian Imperialism/Empire, plus some earlier ones.
Are we seeing the start of the collapse of American "Imperialism" (read that how you like - "influence" might be a better word) and if so what will rise to fill the vacuum? Assuredly something will. Will it be Chinese Imperialism? Imperialism can be economic - it doesn't necessarily have to do with 'territory'.
I'm asking, not to "dump" on our American friends, but to pose a question that could have implications for all. The breakdown of elements in society and the economy in the USA are obviously very serious issues for many RFFers in their capacity as citizens of the USA, regardless of their political leaning. Are there warnings contained in that for the rest of the world?
David Murphy
Veteran
You might be right, we could well be headed for the exit as a superpower, global power (or whatever you want to call it). On the other hand I'm old enough to have seen our epitaph written prematurely once before (shortly before Reagan's ascendancy). In my fathers day I'm sure many thought the same the day after the Japanese sunk the better part of our navy at Pearl Harbor. Life is probably easier and safer as a citizen of a defunct world power than one in ascendancy, but certainly less prosperous and possibly less interesting.
David Murphy
Veteran
You might be right, we could well be headed for the exit as a superpower, global power (or whatever you want to call it). On the other hand I'm old enough to have seen our epitaph written prematurely once before (shortly before Reagan's ascendancy). In my fathers day I'm sure many thought the same the day after the Japanese sunk the better part of our navy at Pearl Harbor. Life is probably easier and safer as a citizen of a defunct world power than one in ascendancy, but certainly less prosperous and possibly less interesting.
One reason I think we could continue as a world power is our increasing population. I really find it really extraordinary that it's doubled my lifetime now to 300 million. It continues to increase through immigration primarily, and if well-assimilated these immigrants and their offspring may render a revitalized America. This is just my gut feeling - partly because the immigrants really are hard working and often ambitious people on the whole - mostly model citizens in my view.
Olsen
Well-known
David,
I think you are right.
USA will have an enormous influence for the next generation or so. Possibly longer. Due to the financial state of USA, their direct power will be reduced, but USA will be 'the World Leader' thanks to their enormous 'influence'. This is very much due to an efficient administration (they don't do everything wrong) that teams with the largest multi national companies of the world. Together they are an enormous force.
I am 100% certain that it is these US multi nationals that motivate the US government to do 'just anything'. If it hadn't been for them the US administration would have played golf. It was the oil industry that motivated Bush jr (he is one of their guys) to attack Iraq. The huge US weapons industry did not protest either. The Hunt family of Dallas have an oil exploration contract with the old dictator of Somalia (Barre). Somalia will not have peace before this contract is respected.
- I could go on.
I think you are right.
USA will have an enormous influence for the next generation or so. Possibly longer. Due to the financial state of USA, their direct power will be reduced, but USA will be 'the World Leader' thanks to their enormous 'influence'. This is very much due to an efficient administration (they don't do everything wrong) that teams with the largest multi national companies of the world. Together they are an enormous force.
I am 100% certain that it is these US multi nationals that motivate the US government to do 'just anything'. If it hadn't been for them the US administration would have played golf. It was the oil industry that motivated Bush jr (he is one of their guys) to attack Iraq. The huge US weapons industry did not protest either. The Hunt family of Dallas have an oil exploration contract with the old dictator of Somalia (Barre). Somalia will not have peace before this contract is respected.
- I could go on.
Spoks
Well-known
What I can't fathom is that so many Americans protests against the New Health care Bill, which tranches out some health care resources to poor Americans.
While no such protests can be traced regarding the TARP and similar federal programs implemented to 'save' huge US banks. As soon as close to a trillion dollars were (borrowed from the Chinese) given these banks their CEO's took out a few billion US$ in compensation for themselves. - Sure, lower compensations than before, but still enormous compared to just any ordinary salary.
This leads me to conclude that the industries behind these programs have an enormous influence over the US population. The health care industry has managed to create a crisis out of a program less than a typical US weapons program. While the TARP money (- etc), which really is a national disaster and financial burden that future generations of Americans will have to carry, - was so 'necessary' to 'save' the US economy. Sure, the TARP money has saved the ownership of the US banks - and some CEO a**es, but not the economy. With galloping US unemployment the burden has to be carried by fewer and fewer tax payers.
People arn't poor because they are lazy. They are poor because Lloyd Blankfine et al runs off with too large a part of the cake.
My little dose of socialism for you here.
While no such protests can be traced regarding the TARP and similar federal programs implemented to 'save' huge US banks. As soon as close to a trillion dollars were (borrowed from the Chinese) given these banks their CEO's took out a few billion US$ in compensation for themselves. - Sure, lower compensations than before, but still enormous compared to just any ordinary salary.
This leads me to conclude that the industries behind these programs have an enormous influence over the US population. The health care industry has managed to create a crisis out of a program less than a typical US weapons program. While the TARP money (- etc), which really is a national disaster and financial burden that future generations of Americans will have to carry, - was so 'necessary' to 'save' the US economy. Sure, the TARP money has saved the ownership of the US banks - and some CEO a**es, but not the economy. With galloping US unemployment the burden has to be carried by fewer and fewer tax payers.
People arn't poor because they are lazy. They are poor because Lloyd Blankfine et al runs off with too large a part of the cake.
My little dose of socialism for you here.
"This leads me to conclude that the industries behind these programs have an enormous influence over the US population."
Americans tend to think for themselves. There has been a distrust of government since the founding, and it still exists.
Despite what you hear/read in the leftist media, and in spite of the comments by prominent left-wing politicians who choose to demonize (Big Pharm, Big Oil, Big Insurance, Big Whatever) Americans as a rule do not have it out for large corporations. They tend to be *employed* by such corporations and they do not believe them to be inherently evil.
They DO however distrust politicians like Rangel, and bureaucrats like Geithner, who retain their positions despite proven corruption and law-breaking. Who are these people to tell us to follow the law, when they do not? is the rallying cry.
I'm glad that you see TARP for the disaster it is. The so-called "health care bill" isn't really a health care bill in the minds of the majority of Americans. It's seen as a power grab, and another way the government has intruded on the individual lives of Americans.
Rasmussen: 55% Favor Repeal of Health Care Bill
"Now that President Obama has signed the legislation into law, most voters want to see it repealed."
Americans tend to think for themselves. There has been a distrust of government since the founding, and it still exists.
Despite what you hear/read in the leftist media, and in spite of the comments by prominent left-wing politicians who choose to demonize (Big Pharm, Big Oil, Big Insurance, Big Whatever) Americans as a rule do not have it out for large corporations. They tend to be *employed* by such corporations and they do not believe them to be inherently evil.
They DO however distrust politicians like Rangel, and bureaucrats like Geithner, who retain their positions despite proven corruption and law-breaking. Who are these people to tell us to follow the law, when they do not? is the rallying cry.
I'm glad that you see TARP for the disaster it is. The so-called "health care bill" isn't really a health care bill in the minds of the majority of Americans. It's seen as a power grab, and another way the government has intruded on the individual lives of Americans.
Rasmussen: 55% Favor Repeal of Health Care Bill
"Now that President Obama has signed the legislation into law, most voters want to see it repealed."
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Spoks
Well-known
I give you documentation that the Americans don't seem to see the difference between 10 $ and 0,10 $ in government expenditure, - and you claim that 'Americans can think for themselves'?
Then you even give us a link to a UTube propaganda video (simply too stupid to be commented) which is just too obvious as to mislead 'Americans' regarding a democratically elected politician the House Majority Leader, no less, Charles B. Rangel - and to the Guy With The Most Difficult job in the World - being Secretary of the Treasury of a practically bankrupt nation, - appointed by the elected president Obama; Tim Geithner.
What am I supposed to make of this?
You know; I'll stick to my original conclusion: '"This leads me to conclude that the industries behind these programs have an enormous influence over the US population."
'Less government': Who will prosper from that? Think for yourself....
antiquark
Derek Ross
Americans are such a peculiar lot.
dfoo
Well-known
I tend to think, as I originally said, that the majority are idiots. The politicians stand there and tell bald faced lies (Iraq has WMD, for example) and the sheeple believe them... Even worse, then the sheeple vote the same liar and facist in _again_? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!
Shame on America. Shame.
I have no idea what you mean by that post. The facts in that video are just that. These people are tax cheats. FACT.
I just came across that video right after I posted, so I decided to edit and link it. It as evidence of the fact that Americans are tired of the hypocrisy exhibited by public officials who threaten jail time and fines as part of a so-called 'health care bill.'
Less government is what built America. The entire world prospered as Americans bought your "European cars, watches, wines, cognacs, shoes, bags & cameras."
But this era is over...
Just today there is a story in the NYT about how Social Security is now paying out more money than it is taking in...something that wasn't supposed to happen until 2019 according to officials now in the administration as recently as August 08: "outlays will first exceed revenues in 2019" -- Peter Orszag, Budget Director, Obama Administration.
Again, another example of why Americans feel the way they do -- they simply do not trust government.
That's what you are supposed to make of this.
I just came across that video right after I posted, so I decided to edit and link it. It as evidence of the fact that Americans are tired of the hypocrisy exhibited by public officials who threaten jail time and fines as part of a so-called 'health care bill.'
Less government is what built America. The entire world prospered as Americans bought your "European cars, watches, wines, cognacs, shoes, bags & cameras."
But this era is over...Just today there is a story in the NYT about how Social Security is now paying out more money than it is taking in...something that wasn't supposed to happen until 2019 according to officials now in the administration as recently as August 08: "outlays will first exceed revenues in 2019" -- Peter Orszag, Budget Director, Obama Administration.
Again, another example of why Americans feel the way they do -- they simply do not trust government.
That's what you are supposed to make of this.
Spoks
Well-known
I am not trying to imply that 'Americans are more stupid than us'. Because that is not true. But huge US multi national companies 'dominates' the political debate to their advantage. That means that the ordinary American must read the media with caution. Like the Russians did during Stalin (Russians are generally very good at 'reading between the lines').
The same thing do happen here in Europe too. But not to the same degree.
The same thing do happen here in Europe too. But not to the same degree.
antiquark
Derek Ross
When was America built? It seems that socialism has always been hiding in plain sight in the USA.
Social security was enacted in 1935:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(United_States)
In the 1950's, the top income tax was over 90% (!!!):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States
Medicare was enacted in 1965:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States)
...maybe the US was built in between bouts of socialism.
parsec1
parsec1
You forgot to mention 'drinker'.
Spoks
Well-known
When was America built? It seems that socialism has always been hiding in plain sight in the USA.
Social security was enacted in 1935:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(United_States)
In the 1950's, the top income tax was over 90% (!!!):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States
Medicare was enacted in 1965:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States)
...maybe the US was built in between bouts of socialism.
Very interesting!
The no 1 inspiration for today's European Social Democrats is not Marx or Lenin, - but Roosevelt...
parsec1
parsec1
You mean like the 'draft dogers' of thr 60s and 70s ?
antiquark
Derek Ross
That's a BS argument anyway, many diseases have no known cause.
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