Cosina/Tokyo Report from Stephen Gandy

[Huck Finn]

Stephen Gandy has posted his report of his tour of the Cosina factory in Japan. Many juicy tidbits. Here it is:

"I am back from the Cosina Factory Tour. I hope to have all orders while I was away shipped by Thursday 3/31. Soon after I will have a report page up at http:''cameraquest.com/Japan2005.htm

"It was interesting to see the Voigtlander, Epson RD-1, and Zeiss Ikon production lines side by side, within 10 feet of each other. In terms of number of products, Mr. K now manufactures something like 80% of the best 35mm rangefinders, lenses, and accessories now in production. That would seem to make the sleepy 40,000 populated hamlet of Nakano two hours from Tokyo the 35mm rangefinder capitol of the world.

"It turns out that everything about the new Zeiss Ikon is indeed new, except the shutter which is shared with the Epson RD-1, Voigtlander R2A and Voigtlander R3A. The new camera is a partnership between Cosina and Zeiss, as opposed to Epson subcontracting the body to Cosina on the RD-1. The new Zeiss 85/2 is much larger than I had remembered from Photokina, about the same as the faster classic 85/1.5 Nikkor for Nikon rangefinders.

"While the Epson Rd-1 body, RF and shutter is assembled at Cosina, the bodies are then shipped to Epson for installation of the digital electronics.

"Many things were discussed at Cosina, most of which I can't discuss except to say that Mr. K is working on many new products. As always, Mr. K was amazing, juggling many, many projects at once.

"Tom & Tuulikki Abrahamsson of Rapidwinder were my most helpful guides to Japan. I count myself very fortunate to call them my friends. From the Rapidwinder news desk, I learned that Tom is sold out of his 50/1.1 Nikkor rangefinder lens shades. Only 30 were produced, actually making the better constructed Abrahamsson 50/1.1 shade much rarer than Nikon's original 50/1.1 shade -- which sells for a mere $3500 or so with case. Two of his next projects include 100 M2 Rapidwinders and 6 limited production M6 Rapidwinders with an unpainted all BRASS outer casing.

"After reading about the wonders of Tokyo camera stores for decades, I came away a bit disappointed. True, you can find many more classic collectibles than in US stores. I had never seen a Metzflex on a camera store shelf before, or a 100/2 Ernermann lens adapted to Pentax screw mount. Some stores had a hundred or more Nikon rangefinders on the shelves, plus lenses and accessories. The problem is the prices, which are typically 2x to 3x US prices. Most items are on consignment. What happens is that the husband buys the treasure and wants to hide it from his wife, so puts it up for sale at his favorite store. If it sells, he makes a profit. If not he keeps his treasure.

"I estimate we visited 30 to 40 Tokyo stores. Very few bargains were found. Shintaro (famous expert Leica painter) bought an Olympus Pen F with 38/1.8 for $20. I bought a nice Canon L-2 Leica screw mount rangefinder body for $150. Tom found an imitation 21mm Nikon viewfinder for the $10,000 21/4 Nikkor which he could not resist.

"The new Black Nikon SP is just starting to appear, but only one camera store we visited had it. Almost identical to the original, it has an improved brighter RF/VF. As I understand it, Nikon is selling them only by lotttery to the public.

"If you plan to buy a new Leica, buy it before July 1st. The M7 and MP USA prices will probably go up to about $3200 7/1."

 

[Flyfisher Tom]

I guess no rumors of CV making a digital body that would be more "affordable" than the RD-1 :-( darn

 

[jdos2]

Sigh.
It would seem that the rumors of the disposable Nikon SP are for naught. Ah, well.


















>;->

 

[Cloudy]

Thanks for sharing! 🙂

 

[Huck Finn]

You're welcome, Cloudy. 🙂

 

[RML]

Could I deduce from Stephen's report that the noted alignment problems with the R-D1's RF/VF and sensor could be in part caused at Epson? Everyone has a word to say about alleged under-par QC at Cosina but reading that Cosina installs the RF and Epson the electronics makes me think that both at Cosina and at Epson some QC improvements could take place. One wouldn't expect any RF/VF and sensor alignment problems from a $3000/Euro 3000 camera....

 

[sockdaddy]

i'm still waiting to see any news or announcements on the CQ website... i just hope he doesn't pull an April Fool's prank and post some news about all "the new models" at ridiculous prices...

 

[Doug]

It'll be interesting to see what info about the Z-I shows up on the CQ site, but worldwide (except Japan) distribution is being handled by Hasselblad... http://www.hasselbladusa.com/ and more info can be found at http://www.zeissikon.com/index.htm

 

[Huck Finn]

"It turns out that everything about the new Zeiss Ikon is indeed new except the shutter which is shared . . . The new camera is a partnership between Cosina and Zeiss, as opposed to Epson subcontracting the body to Cosina on the RD-1."

I think that this statement alone tells us all we need to know. Now the camera can be evaluated on its own merits.

Doug, this is an interesting dilemma for Stephen, who prides himself on the comprehensiveness of his website - which was clearly a labor of love. It's one thing for him to offer free information on Leica products, but they are not really in direct competition with his Voigtlander offerings. And the promotion of a general interest in rangefinders has to help his business in the long run. However, the ZI is in direct competition with what he sells. It can be viewed as Cosina's premium line, while Voigtlander can be seen as consumer grade - albeit a very good consumer grade product line. So, his dilemma is whether to offer an objective analysis of the ZI, which serves to promote its profile & to steer potential business away from him, or to imbed some negatives into his review in hopes of discouraging potential buyers, or to ignore it altogether. He did a nice job of objectively reporting on the Konica Hexar RF, but Voigtlander didn't really have anything in direct competition with it at the time.

I'm most interested to see whether Camera Quest will offer the ZI for sale & if so, at what price. Given Stephen's relationship with Mr. K at Cosina, one would think that this possibility has come up for discussion. Photo Village, the other USA Voigtlander distributor, is selling ZI & its lenses, but they were already a Hasselblad dealer & Camera Quest is not. Could CQ directly import from Cosina grey market? I suspect not. Early reports had Cosina as the ZI distributor in Japan, but later reports were that they had turned this task over to another established Japanese distributor, so they are only the OEM for Zeiss & their other partner, Hasselblad. If Cosina has returned the rights of distribution in japan & simply subcontracted these to another distributor, there is hope for a grey market offering from CQ at a reduced price - pending any other agreements that Cosina has with Zeiss regarding the exclusivity of Hasselblad's distribution rights.

In the end, I think that Stephen will do his usual excellent job of reviewing the camera on his website & I, too, am looking forward to his report. When it comes to buying, I will probably turn to Dr.Joseph Yao, the respected Hong Kong dealer, whose prices on the lenses are about 15% lower that USA prices.

 

[wlewisiii]

Well, as far as this potential customer is concerned, Mr. Gandy is safe. While I think the new ZI is a very beautiful camera and I have no doubt that it will be a very good one as well, I really don't need to buy yet another mount. Were they to offer a version with even just the exterior bayonette (ala Kiev 5) then I might purchase it. Instead, I'll eventually buy an R2C so that all the lenses I've been investing in are still of good use. Or perhaps a S3 2000 with the mount modified for CRF rather than NRF mount lenses... 😱 (wouldn't that PO the collectors!)

Somewhat more possible is that Cosina might get permission to make the lenses in CRF mount since they have recently made some of thier own that way. But at the end of the day, I really don't want to have to buy any M mount lenses, so the ZI will remain a curiosity to me.

William

 

[jlw]

Could I deduce from Stephen's report that the noted alignment problems with the R-D1's RF/VF and sensor could be in part caused at Epson?

Although I want to start out by noting that the vast majority of R-D 1s have had NO such problems reported, I also was struck by this comment.

It wouldn't surprise me if the problems with the few R-D 1s so affected were the result of this separation of functions.

We can see by the cutaway images that have been posted that the R-D 1's electronics are closely intertwined with its mechanics. So, it's very easy to imagine an R-D 1 leaving Cosina with everything perfectly aligned, having been carefully checked on instruments made for that purpose... then going to Epson, where the electronics assembler inadvertently disturbs some adjustment while installing the circuitry. Epson's QC department, having only instruments to test the electronics, checks them and finds that they function perfectly... and off it goes...

It's also easy to imagine this sort of mistake happening only once, possibly on only one shift's worth of work by one improperly-trained assembler -- yielding one small batch of misaligned R-D 1s, which, through the magic of the Internet, morph into "noted alignment problems" with the entire production run...

 

[jlw]

[T]his is an interesting dilemma for Stephen, who prides himself on the comprehensiveness of his website - which was clearly a labor of love. It's one thing for him to offer free information on Leica products, but they are not really in direct competition with his Voigtlander offerings. And the promotion of a general interest in rangefinders has to help his business in the long run. However, the ZI is in direct competition with what he sells.

I dunno, we're talking about a $560 camera (Bessa) vs. a projected $1700 camera (Z-I.) I wish my economic circumstances were such that a mere $1,140 price difference would be so trivial as to render these cameras "direct competitors" -- but realistically, I don't think a lot of us are in that position!

I suspect that the main effect the Z-I will have on Stephen's business will be to give him an additional platform for selling Voigtlander lenses!

When it comes to buying, I will probably turn to Dr.Joseph Yao, the respected Hong Kong dealer, whose prices on the lenses are about 15% lower that USA prices.

With all due respect to Dr. Yao, IF it comes to buying, I think I'll turn to a dealer a little closer to home! After all, this IS an almost completely new camera, and even the most prestigious manufacturers aren't immune to "teething troubles." (Remember the Leica M4-2 and its companion Leica Winder/Film-Ripper/Gear Stripper?)

I bought a Contax G2 as soon as they became available -- and found that, because of some tiny imperfection in the take-up chamber, it was putting a scratch on the last 10 exposures or so of a 36-exposure roll. It went back in its box and back to where I had bought it: my local dealer, who simply took the box and handed me a replacement (which was perfect.) Sometimes that's worth paying a little extra...

 

[Huck Finn]

JLW, although the current list price of $1617 places the ZI more than $1000 above the cost of the R2/3A, it is still substantially less than the $3200 that Stephen projects for the M7 this summer when ZI is on the market. For those who can't or won't pay $3200 for a Leica, CV remains the only option for some, but for others who can or are willing to meet the price, the ZI now represents another option.

In contrast the Konica Hexar RF was never in direct competition with CV because CV did not offer an AE camera at the time. For those who wanted an all-manual/all-mecahnical alternative to the M6, CV was it.

Regarding price, Konica Hexar RF opened at about $2000 in kit form, but eventually settled in at about $1500 from most dealers & even less on sale. The Rollei 35 RF opened at $1900 in kit form, but now can be had for a little over $1000 at B&H & the body alone is available for under $500 from Adorama. I'm sure that Stephen knows that $1600 is the opening price, not necessarily where it will eventually settle. The price will rise or fall with the market - just as it did for the G2.

You make an excellent point about lens sales. I overlooked that. I hope that Stephen will see it the same way you do. 🙂

I'm normally a pretty cautious buyer, so I think that your points about paying extra to buy closer to home are well taken & I'll have to think more about it. But I've exchanged e-mails with Dr. Yao & have been very impressed with his prompt replies & the thoroughness of his answers. Dr. Yao's family has been in this business for 72 years & I have only read good things about him on photo forums like this one. Unfortuantely I can't say the same for some others like ACC. The price of this camera is not an insignificant outlay to me either, so I will consider a way to save money. The question remains whether Hasselblad will provide service for a warranty on a camera purchased in another country - which may be a factor as well.

A number of Europeans & Australians on this forum have purchased from Camera Quest & Photo Village to save money. They have also successfully been able to mail their cameras back across the "pond" for warranty service. I may mail in the opposite direction to save on price.

🙂 Cheers . . .

 

[jlw]

JLW, although the current list price of $1617 places the ZI more than $1000 above the cost of the R2/3A, it is still substantially less than the $3200 that Stephen projects for the M7 this summer when ZI is on the market. For those who can't or won't pay $3200 for a Leica, CV remains the only option for some, but for others who can or are willing to meet the price, the ZI now represents another option.

True. I see that as a good thing, and I suspect Stephen will as well. After all, as a dealer he's something of an "RF specialilst" -- so the more interest there is in buying and using rangefinder cameras, the greater the benefit to his business.

To change the subject slightly, does everybody see what an interesting marketing position is shaping up here?

When the Z-I camera appears, we'll have a 35mm RF market with fundamentally similar cameras at three distinct price "steps:" the Bessa at about $600, the Z-I at about $1,700, and the Leicas at about $3,200.

(I say "fundamentally similar" because these are all manual-advance, optical-RF cameras with M lens mounts and aperture-priority or manual exposure.)

Meanwhile, we'll also have lens lines at three price tiers: Voigtlander lenses (low), C-Z lenses (middle) and Leica lenses (high.)

This creates an intriguing situation where consumers have a group of "commodity" products that they can mix-and-match to create their own price tiers -- combining a Bessa, Z-I or Leica body with a Voigtlander, CZ, or Leica lens to get the mix of features and price they want.

This is a really nice situation for camera shoppers!

(I know, I know... the missing piece of the puzzle is an "entry level" price tier, for people who find even a $550 camera body a bit steep. One could argue that this niche is filled by used cameras, although I can't think of any genuinely cheap RF bodies that can accept an M-mount lens.)

 

[Huck Finn]

JLW, I couldn't agree with you more! Although you don't see it on this forum, it's pretty popular on Leica forums to bash the ZI. I don't get that mentality. Like you, I see the camera & lenses adding a third tier. In fact, I think that's exactly what Zeiss was aiming for. They saw a price point half way between CV & Leica and looked to fill it with a camera that's cheaper than Leica but offers some upgrades on CV features.

When I bought into an SLR system years ago, I realized that I'd have to accept some compromises. I bought a Nikon system & realized that Nikon may not have the best lens at every focal length, but I felt that the overall system would best meet my needs. RF users, as you so aptly point out, now have the best of all worlds - something unheard of in the world of SLRs. If you have an M-mount camera, you can pick & choose lenses from several different companies, at different price ranges, & with different optical characteristics. Heaven!

Regarding used cameras filling the mid-price range, my view is that this doesn't do anything for the buyer who really prefers a new product with a warranty. Furthermore the mid-price ZIs will eventually come onto the used market & will add another tier there just as they are doing in the new camera market & just as the Konica Hexar RF has been doing. The more choices, the better in my book. I was amazed to read a poster on another forum write that there was no point to the new Zeiss line because they were simply duplicating what already exists. He just left me scratching my head.

Best regards,
Huck

 

[RML]

Although I want to start out by noting that the vast majority of R-D 1s have had NO such problems reported, I also was struck by this comment.

<snipsnip>

It's also easy to imagine this sort of mistake happening only once, possibly on only one shift's worth of work by one improperly-trained assembler -- yielding one small batch of misaligned R-D 1s, which, through the magic of the Internet, morph into "noted alignment problems" with the entire production run...

JLW, I wasn't implying there's a slew of disfunctional R-D1s out there. 🙂 With "noted alignment problems" I was merely refering to the reports of some users that have been experiencing these alignment problems. Sorry if I caused people to think these alignment problems are widespread and are likely to be found on most or all R-D1s.