Leica LTM Creepy Old Cameras

[Roger Hicks]

. . . Very sophisticated modern European sublimated anti-Semitism, in my opinion. . . .

Oh, dear. Anyone who refuses to accept that the Nazis are the fons et origo of all evil is an anti-semite? Even if, condescendingly, a very sophisticated modern European sublimated anti-Semite. You'll have to do better than that.

I fully accept that the German army was used by a regime that regarded many races (not just Jews) as sub-human, but I still suggest that you are conflating the regime and its tools. Some of its tools were undoubtedly wicked. Others, undoubtedly, were not. This is all I am saying. Or are you seriously pretending that all members of the German armed forces in WW2 were enthusiastically murderous Nazis?

Cheers,

R.

 

[I Love Film]

You know that this is nonsense and absolutely not what I said.

Now you are trying to say that "Oh, you see, THOSE people ALWAYS twist the argument that way. Tut, tut, now WE know what they are up to. Isn't it a shame they own the media! (and the Germans kiiled Gypsies and homosexuals too! What whiners THOSE people are)"

I did not say the Nazis were the "supreme evil" at all, and you know it.

Oh, dear. Anyone who refuses to accept that the Nazis are the fons et origo of all evil is an anti-semite? Even if, condescendingly, a very sophisticated modern European sublimated anti-Semite. You'll have to do better than that.

.

 

[Roger Hicks]

You know that this is nonsense and absolutely not what I said.

Now you are trying to say that "Oh, you see, THOSE people ALWAYS twist the argument that way. Tut, tut, now WE know what they are up to. Isn't it a shame they own the media! (and the Germans kiiled Gypsies and homosexuals too! What whiners THOSE people are)"

I did not say the Nazis were the "supreme evil" at all, and you know it.

Third para: no, but you did immediately call me an anti-semite, and if you can't see that this is a nonsensical over-reaction, your nonsense filters are set pretty low.

Which is further suggested by the ridiculous straw man argument in your middle paragraph. Or indeed in your piano-wire letter.

Cheers,

R.

 

[I Love Film]

I did not call you an anti-Semite. Frankly, I don't know your beliefs and I don't care. What people say in public forums is used to disseminate what persona posters wish to be perceived by others, not their actual personas.

What I did say was you are using a technique used by modern holocaust-deniers and anti-Semites.

You are attempting to diminish the magnitude of an historical event by grouping it with other events of a similar nature, so as to "even it out" by non-congruous example.

I will state an example by using a fictional event.

"Oh yes, the Chinese built large "extermination villages" with modern killing chambers, and brought 7 million Tibetans there in box cars and killed them within the space of three years. Then they gave their homes to the Chinese. But Israel occupied the Gaza strip. The Americans wiped out the Indians. The Japanese worked prisoners to death in WWII. So you see, the Chinese are no worse than anyone else, and really not so bad when you compare the Tibetan genocide with other atrocities. Those Tibetans are whining manipulators. And besides, the Chinese soldiers who killed the Tibetans were just kids. They were basically innocent patriots."

Go back and read your post #97 VERY carefully.

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[Roger Hicks]

. . . Go back and read your post #97 VERY carefully. . . .

I have. I've also re-read most of your posts. There is no way we can argue rationally if you keep creating new fantasies. I suggest we call it a day.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Sparrow]

I did not call you an anti-Semite. Frankly, I don't know your beliefs and I don't care. What people say in public forums is used to disseminate what persona posters wish to be perceived by others, not their actual personas.

What I did say was you are using a technique used by modern holocaust-deniers and anti-Semites.

You are attempting to diminish the magnitude of an historical event by grouping it with other events of a similar nature, so as to "even it out" by non-congruous example.

I will state an example by using a fictional event.

"Oh yes, the Chinese built large "extermination villages" with modern killing chambers, and brought 7 million Tibetans there in box cars and killed them within the space of three years. Then they gave their homes to the Chinese. But Israel occupied the Gaza strip. The Americans wiped out the Indians. The Japanese worked prisoners to death in WWII. So you see, the Chinese are no worse than anyone else. Those Tibetans are whining manipulators."

Go back and read your post #97 VERY carefully.

.

It seems to me this type of twaddle could only be regurgitated by someone who has absolutely no knowledge of the relationship between the Wehrmacht and the National Socialists at the time

 

[I Love Film]

It seems to me this type of twaddle could only be regurgitated by someone who has absolutely no knowledge of the relationship between the Wehrmacht and the National Socialists at the time

Please enlighten me. Tell me exactly what the relationship was so I can learn the error of my twaddle. Post your information here. (I will hum the "Horst Wessel" song whilst waiting for your historical expertise)

 

[I Love Film]

In a way, Jews are a race, rather than strictly a religion. This has been borne out by recent studies of mitochondrial DNA, but I will agree with you for the sake of this thread. (this is a huge area of contention which can't be decided here)

On the other hand, my fictional examples were merely illustrative with much license. I did not intend to infer that some groups were religions vs races.

This thread is now taking a different turn, for example, now someone wants to debate the relationship between the OKW and NSDAP armed factions such as SA and SS.

If you want to close the thread it is fine with me, I don't think anything relating to camera collection will be decided here.

 

[I Love Film]

l'll say this. You are very astute in not taking the "Tibet" bait.

But I posted hypothetical analogies, not fantasies.

I have. I've also re-read most of your posts. There is no way we can argue rationally if you keep creating new fantasies. I suggest we call it a day.

Cheers,

R.

 

[I Love Film]

Just got back from Japan. Horribly jet-lagged. Don't know nuffin about dem Mets.

 

[goamules]

Oh good. I love a good train wreck. If only I could own the ticket concession.

Well you're the one that caused the thread to go off tracks starting from your first post. Now you've admitted you tried to bait people into more argument, you're now admitting you love starting a forum fight.

-Looking for this Forum's "ignore" feature so I don't have to read this person any more.

 

[I Love Film]

This thread sort of reminds me of an incident in Tokyo last week. I was wandering Tokyo, saw a big group with lots of flags, shouting.

I inadvertently walked into a huge Japanese Ultra-Nationalist rally. Some of them were screaming at gaijin tourists. I just smiled, stayed in the middle, took photos with my M9.

One started to say something to me, then was a bit puzzled when he saw my 5 year old son, who happened to be wearing a t-shirt with a Mitsubishi Zero on it. That confused the hell out of him.

I presume he started to say something nasty to me (my Japanese is almost non-existent), then my son answered him back defending me in pure Tokyo-accented vernacular Japanese. The son then turned to me and told me what they were saying in pure NYC English.

Anyway, a couple of them who spoke good English came to talk to me. They assumed the idiot gaijin didn't know anything about history and was only interested in finding the nearest MacDonalds. When I launched into a detailed analysis of the Co-Prosperity sphere, they were totally baffled and ended up wanting to take photos with me.

By the way, Tokyo was like a humid furnace, almost killed me.

 

[Pastor Chris]

Or someone might have done it because they didn't want to get into trouble carrying a (possibly stolen) military issue camera.

Try finding a Kodak 35 US Army Signal Corps "PH-324" camera with its original nomenclature plate still attached.

Pretty cool looking camera; one just ended on Ebay. Any idea what it was that made this camera attractive for adoption for military use? I would imagine that the Leicas were adopted because of their extraordinary quality both mechanically and optically. Would you say this is true of the Kodak as well, or was it something else?

 

[dave lackey]

I think you are right as well. For example, I think that clowns are creepy but others just love them, like John Wayne Gasey. Certainly it is not the object itself, but it's story or connotation. As one earlier poster mentioned, I did not find it creepy until I fully knew what it was. So. Not inherently creepy unto itself, but creepy because of its known history, relative to my own perceptions and context.

But this is irrelevant to the original question, "Have you ever encountered a creepy old camera ( a camera that you found creepy), what was it, and what did you do about it?"

I'm not asking if you think my camera was creepy, but have you ever been in a similar situation?

Perhaps another, related question, given that one person's creepy camera is another's highly desired collectible, what is the attraction?

Certainly another can of worms, but I think relevant.

Back OT, no, I don't find any camera creepy. I don't think Mitsubishi products are creepy, nor Mercedes cars, nor Walther firearms, nor BMW products and the list goes on.

History is what it is and nothing will change it. It should be remembered for what it is, IMO, and not thought of as creepy so much as to erase the objects from our lives so no one will remember.

My ancestors were Cherokee. The Trail of Tears and the entire removal of Native Americans were atrocities. But, I do not see any objects that contain the evil spirits from that period of time....that was all in the hearts and minds of the people of the era. And we, my family, have long since forgiven those poor souls.

I would love to have any camera. It is, after all, just a camera.🙂

Edit: You think clowns are creepy? I think a lot of the Santa Claus figures around are weird. Clowns were always weird because of certain movies over the years, not creepy, just weird. Don't get me started on sock monkeys and Chucky. I hate those kinds of movies.

 

[I Love Film]

So who is buying the tens of thousands of "Nazi" marked cameras being manufactured every year in Eastern Europe out of FEDS and Zorkis?

Just think, those cameras are double desirable. Nazi cameras made out of Stalinist cameras made in child labor communes!

 

[Pastor Chris]

Edit: You think clowns are creepy? I think a lot of the Santa Claus figures around are weird. Clowns were always weird because of certain movies over the years, not creepy, just weird. Don't get me started on sock monkeys and Chucky. I hate those kinds of movies.

Our church does a few large missions fundraisers during the year and we just finished our annual Peach Festival. We raised $57,000, which is a great year. I am in charge of seeling some items on Ebay. During the 6 week donation phase, folks will sort through donated items and bring in thing that they think might be valuable and Ebayable. I often walk into my office to see a stack of dolls staring at me, waiting for me to broker them on Ebay.

I think sock monkeys are on the fence, Chuck is very creepy, dolls in general are pretty creepy, especially the very lifelike ones.

FYI: not too many cool cameras come in this year, a Rollei 35, a Baltamatic III (worst ergonomics ever but a cool looking camera) and a collection of Canon A1s.

 

[redisburning]

being a Jew can be either an Ethnic or Religious designation.

 

[Pastor Chris]

So who is buying the tens of thousands of "Nazi" marked cameras being manufactured every year in Eastern Europe out of FEDS and Zorkis?

Just think, those cameras are double desirable. Nazi cameras made out of Stalinist cameras made in child labor communes!

Not to step on anyone's sensibilities, and there have been many seemingly genuine resentments towards certain things in this thread's life, but that is damn funny. (in a sad and superficial way)

 

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

but that is damn funny.

It's always good to laugh at the ability of humans to make the most innocent of objects horrific.

 

[Pastor Chris]

It's always good to laugh at the ability of humans to make the most innocent of objects horrific.

This might have been a better title to this thread, "Is this just an old camera or an example of the ability of humans to make the most innocent of objects horrific?"

🙄

I have also discovered, in my work as a pastor, that laughing and crying are perilously close to one another. Of course, you do not need to be a pastor to know this, only human and with the ability to express emotion.