Bob Michaels
nobody special
Bill: thanks for stating your opinion so clearly. I point out the matter of perspective. Some here worry about chickens while those from other countries, Cuba being a prime example, dismiss cocks while asking me how we can even sleep at night with the way we treat our fellow citizens. It is all about perspective.
Bill, I am contemplating whether that is my failure or if I actually have any responsibility for convincing you anything about your own preconceived notions, which may or may not be correct. My objective never was to inform all the uninformed about the various aspects of this subject. Could it be that you believe the focus of my story should have been about educating you and others rather than what I actually did?
Dan Daniel
Well-known
I was surprised to read that you (Bob) have a history with cockfights involving an old girlfriend. The initial presentation and captions had a rather detached tourist feel to them. I think that rhl's comment on the writing and digging into the voice you really want for this series provide a solid point to move forward from, as you acknowledge. Looking forward to the next version.
Yes, the animal cruelty thing is real. I am reminded of the ending of Uncle Tom's Cabin where Tom is forced to fight. But I am with you on the last statement on what responsibility you have to viewers. Anyone in a country whose President boasts of sexual assault, a country which poisons thousands of kids in Flint, Michigan, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseam, is not in a good position to preach morality to others. I hope that the response here gives you more focus to what this sport means to you and how you want others to look at it (because face it, you do have something you want to convey).
Yes, the animal cruelty thing is real. I am reminded of the ending of Uncle Tom's Cabin where Tom is forced to fight. But I am with you on the last statement on what responsibility you have to viewers. Anyone in a country whose President boasts of sexual assault, a country which poisons thousands of kids in Flint, Michigan, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseam, is not in a good position to preach morality to others. I hope that the response here gives you more focus to what this sport means to you and how you want others to look at it (because face it, you do have something you want to convey).
colker
Well-known
Should i object to pictures of soldiers laughing and having fun because i object to war?
On the contrary: photojournalism shows contradictory aspects of life.
On the contrary: photojournalism shows contradictory aspects of life.
Guth
Appreciative User
Thanks Bob, understood. I can certainly accept anyone outside of the United States questioning how we can sleep at night given the way we treat our fellow citizens. They're not alone.
Only you can determine what your personal responsibility is in this case. People do plenty of things to both animals and other humans alike that I personally disagree with. Not just elsewhere in the word, but here in my own country, my own state and my own town. No matter how I feel about these things that I see as injustices, I realize that such behavior won't end within my lifetime nor that of my child. I can voice my opinion and share my feedback for your consideration, but you are the one telling this particular story. Even though you asked for that feedback I realize that at best my words merely serve as food for thought. The fact that you've taken them into consideration enough to respond is more than some would do. At this point if you feel that your personal objective has been met then you need pay my words no more attention. I will say that some of your responses in this thread have proven to be more insightful than much of the wording you chose to include with your photographs. But again, your story.
...Bill
PRJ
Another Day in Paradise
I don't really care about the "cultural" angle like some people who are freaking out do. I understand different cultures have different traditions. Simple really. I don't judge other cultures based on my own as I've been around a bit.
Your photographs though are superficial at best. It looks like you went to a cockfight as a tourist and took pictures which are repetitive and from back in the cheap seats. How many photographs do you have of some dude holding a cock? I really don't see a story here other than a tourist at a cockfight and even that is a weak one. Your descriptions of the images are more necessary than the images themselves in many cases. The fact too that you cut the head off of the liquor woman reducing her to a pair of boobs and a liquor bottle is pretty bad, especially in that context. In the end I guess the real question is what did I learn about cockfighting? The answer is nothing.
Great images need no explanation, mediocre ones do, poor images need defending. You are doing a lot of defending.
If you go back to do it again, get your nose up in it. Figure out what makes the experience unique. Show what the people feel about it. Good, bad, ugly. Doesn't matter. Just make it real. I could go on, but you probably get the picture.
Your photographs though are superficial at best. It looks like you went to a cockfight as a tourist and took pictures which are repetitive and from back in the cheap seats. How many photographs do you have of some dude holding a cock? I really don't see a story here other than a tourist at a cockfight and even that is a weak one. Your descriptions of the images are more necessary than the images themselves in many cases. The fact too that you cut the head off of the liquor woman reducing her to a pair of boobs and a liquor bottle is pretty bad, especially in that context. In the end I guess the real question is what did I learn about cockfighting? The answer is nothing.
Great images need no explanation, mediocre ones do, poor images need defending. You are doing a lot of defending.
If you go back to do it again, get your nose up in it. Figure out what makes the experience unique. Show what the people feel about it. Good, bad, ugly. Doesn't matter. Just make it real. I could go on, but you probably get the picture.
jarski
Veteran
This photo raised my curiosity as well, about the details. How can animal like rooster know it’s being armed more than what nature provides? Are they trained somehow? Some more details beside the photo would help uninformed.
jawarden
Well-known
Bob, that's not perspective, it's just deflection, and a logical fallacy.
Person 1 says cock fighting is cruel. Person 2, pointing finger, says "But look at what those hypocrites waaay over there do!" Kind of lame, right? Of course there are larger crimes in the world than cockfighting but that's not the point.
Cock fighting, dog fighting, bullfights, they're all the same entertainment really. And the only response to animal cruelty accusations that I would respect from anyone involved in them is this: "Sure it's cruel. Animals die and that's okay with me and my people. It's entertainment." At least that's honest and straightforward, and owning your decision is preferable to hiding behind lame beside the point deflections like "but look what Americans do to their own people" or silly defenses of culture.
Cockfighting exists in the USA too of course, and the videos I watched about it tonight showed about what I expected: bravado, pride in the animals, the promise of profit, and bloody death. But what a surprise - the Americans were owning up to it, with a big proud middle finger to anyone who disagreed with their fun.
What a world.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Cockfighting is now illegal everywhere in the United States, and has been since Louisiana banned it in 2007. Before that, New Mexico had been the only other state to allow cockfighting; they banned it before Louisiana did.
Cockfighting has deep roots in Hispanic culture, and Latin cultures generally, so its no surprise that New Mexico and Louisiana with their large Spanish and French populations were the last states in the US to outlaw cockfights.
ptpdprinter
Veteran
I'm not sure why people like to strap knife blades on chickens' legs and watch them slash each other to death. We sure didn't see the horror of the "sport" depicted in your photos. Just a bunch of people laughing and smiling, drinking and betting. Everyone must have had a good time. I guess that was the aspect of the event you wanted to show.
jawarden
Well-known
The illegality of the practice (which my bleeding heart considers barbaric) has had an effect, but of course it still happens. Such is life.
davidnewtonguitars
Family Snaps
I'm glad the US has mostly outlawed cock-fighting, dog-fighting, and the like. It is not good for our society.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Or, could it be that my photos of the reality do not match up with your preconceived notions? Have you ever been to a cock fight? Every know anyone who cared for cocks? Have you ever even raised chickens?
Now I certainly will agree that a photographer can have major influence about how any event is depicted. My attempt was to be objective. Others have the right to question that. But there has not been any responses here from anyone who has any actual first hand knowledge.
jawarden
Well-known
As for cockfighting and your claim above, my reading on the subject suggests that Cubans are not actually unanimous on this subject. Are you sure nobody gives a **** about these birds in Cuba?
ptpdprinter
Veteran
I have seen videos of cockfights. The images in the videos do not correspond to the images in your photo story. I have not attended a cockfight. Cockfights are illegal. I have not raised chickens.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
So you have never been to a cockfight in Cuba. You know nothing about the way fighting cocks are cared for. You know nothing about chickens. You do not even know that cockfighting is legal in Cuba although any betting is illegal. You are simply applying your own uninformed preconceived notions of something you actually know nothing about other that watching videos on the internet. I rest my case.
jarski
Veteran
I think Bob asked for critique of his photo series, not to become a spokes person of Cuban cockfighting tradition. It is what it is, and this thread is about documenting it.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Living in Cuba part time, I see no real concern. Cubans understand chickens are something beyond a meat product that comes wrapped in plastic at the store. They are directly connected to agricultural reality as until recently every Cuban student must spend a month every year on a farm working agriculture with their hands. Many raise chickens at home and are familiar with the process of personally killing one for a meal. They understand that given a choice, any rooster would choose to be a fighting cock rather than Sunday's dinner.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
If we were in a bar, I would buy you a beer.
Arquetipofoto
Arquetipo
Great series Bob, and yes, even controversial subjects deserve to be documented properly. Having been to the island and living in Mexico, I can say that this activity however disagreeable from a personal perspective, it is very well a common ocurrance culturally and it’s not the place of the photojournalist to run away from controversial topics. Well done! And excuse my English
ptpdprinter
Veteran
You dismiss internet videos of cockfights as uninforming yet want us to accept your internet still images. Do you see the irony in that?