Digital camera that doesn't feel like a computer between you and taking a picture

nightfly

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As I was heading into the city on Saturday to do some street shooting with my GRD3, I was listening to an old On Taking Pictures podcast (#78 from October 22, 2013) and Bill Wadman was talking about how as much as he liked the image quality of the Fuji X100, he still felt like it didn't live up to his expectations of wanting a camera "that doesn't feel like a computer between you and taking the pictures".

Went through my day and got my shots (was shooting for a client) although was a bit angry that the GRD kept freezing up so that it would turn off and try to close itself but couldn't (I guess due to the cold) and then I'd go to shoot and not realize it was off and miss a shot.

It got me thinking that I'd really like a digital camera that was closer to my Leica M4-P. Basically, I could set everything with dedicated dials and just pick it up and shoot quickly with no more futzing. The GRD is good but in truth it still feels like shooting with a computer.

Which made me start thinking about a used M9, as much as I don't really want to spend $4K. Does anything else do this? In Bill Wadmans' words "not feel like a computer between you and taking the picture". Hell I've never used a digital M, does the digital M even do this?
 
The digital M and R-D1 are the only cameras that comes close (due to true manual focus and lack of typical program modes / gimmicks)... it goes downhill from there if you expect a digital camera to feel and act like a mechanical camera. I love Fujifilm cameras, but they are certainly computers and act like it.
 
I think digital can be almost as manual as mechanical cameras. I shoot primarily with my A7r now and the only "computerish" feature I use is live view. Manual focus with my M lenses and all settings to manual. Live view/focus peaking are a great addition to me. Mechanical cameras have all of their little foibles as well. My way of looking at things is you have to enjoy what you have in your hand at that point in time.
 
All digital M-series that I've used up to the Typ 240 are close enough to film Leicas that I've never felt that there was a computer between me and the subject. I've used M8, M8.2, M9 for months or years; I've handled the MM and M-E; and I've been using a Typ 240 for a couple of months. The Typ 240 can be used like previous (and concurrent) M-digitals, but it's disputable whether it's worth buying a Typ 240 instead of an M-E or second-hand M9 if you don't want the extra features (live view, video, electronic viewfinder...). The extra pixels are welcome, but not (for me) decisive, and the same is true of the higher ISO. Barring mishap, my review of the Typ 240 will be in the next issue of American Photo, coming out shortly.

Cheers,

R.
 
That's sorta where I'm out an ME or a second hand M9. Found a place that you can rent one from so might invest the money to use one first.
 
It's interesting to me, this perception of technological "intereference".

Every car today is a collection of computers. Some cars wear that proudly (Prius, GT-R), and that computer-ness is part of the appeal of the car. In most cars, when the computers get in the way, you hate them (ever been in snow, rocking a car to get it out, and the car won't let you spin the tires, which is exactly what you want to do?)

The most fun cars to drive, for me at least, and I think a lot of other people, are cars the do a good job of assisting you when you need it, and keeping out of the way the rest of the time. A car with ABS that kicks in late, or stability control that lets you get the back end out far enough that you can enjoy it, and recover yourself, before the car 'saves' you (but of course, it will save you if you mess up). Basically, a car that doesn't feel like it has computers until suddenly, you really want that computer (ie the split second before you end up backwards in a corn field doing 60 mph).

So, how does this relate to the OP's issue? Simple, I don't mind a digital camera that gets out of the way, even if it embraces it's digital-ness. The lousy ones are the ones that force their computer-ness on you in a way counter productive to taking a picture.

As an example, my EM-1 never lets you forget that you are using a digital camera. The VF is a screen. It felt really weird the first time I used it. But it embraces that, it lets you do things you simply can't do in a OVF. And once you do get over the oddity of it, it gets out of the way. The twin dials make manual mode easy and intuitive, if not traditional. The VF gives you a real time view of the light, as the camera will capture it (blown highlights are instantly visible, no need to chimp).

I expect the X-T1 will be much the same, because of the EVF you'll never forget your using a digital camera, but hopefully it'll get out of your way.

The worst cameras are the ones that hide the setting you want behind push buttons and menus (entry level Canons and Nikons are brutal for this imo). The camera never gets out of your way, everytime you want to do something other than full auto, you're navigating a screen, not focusing on your subject.

Interestingly, this fault isn't limited to digital cameras, it existed in film cameras just as much. In my dark room class most of us have old 70s or 80s cameras . One poor soul has an Elan 7. Maybe once you know your way around the camera it is nice, but for a student, it is brutal. No one in the class could figure out how to change his aperture in manual mode. The camera has so many bells and whistles it is totally unintuitive. Tonight will be his first week of using it, and I'm curious to hear if he's bonded with it, or ready to junk it. I've brought an old Chinon for him to use in case he hasn't bonded with it...
 
Well, I'll admit that the thing I like about some of my cameras is that they do act like computers. I really enjoy the WYSIWYG of my Panasonic cameras and the old Sony R1.

I also enjoy the "old fashioned" experience from my Nikon DSLRs, so I sympathise with that faction also.
 
what does a computer feel like?

i turn on my fuji xe1 and i turn it off when i'm done shooting.
i decide if i want to focus manually (hardly ever) or use the af (almost always). i place the af box where i want it (focus & recompose, like my rf cams do)
i decide on spot or matrix metering…
the thing is even shaped like a rangefinder.
 
Interestingly, this fault isn't limited to digital cameras, it existed in film cameras just as much. In my dark room class most of us have old 70s or 80s cameras . One poor soul has an Elan 7. Maybe once you know your way around the camera it is nice, but for a student, it is brutal. No one in the class could figure out how to change his aperture in manual mode. The camera has so many bells and whistles it is totally unintuitive. Tonight will be his first week of using it, and I'm curious to hear if he's bonded with it, or ready to junk it. I've brought an old Chinon for him to use in case he hasn't bonded with it...
It isn't the camera, it is your class 😉 The wheel on the back of the camera controls the aperture....

My Sony A900 stays out of the way all the time. It is as intuitive as the venerable Minolta Dynax 9 (Maxxum 9) and it is the best digital camera I own.
 
Should clarify. I use a camera like a caveman. I want to set the shutter speed and aperture and be able to see both those settings without looking at the display. I usually set the focus as well and then I shoot quickly with zero adjustment while shooting generally and quick flicks of the aperture or shutter speed as light changes and hyperfocus depending on situation I'm working in but usually around 2-3 meters with a 28 or a 35mm lens.

With the Ricoh this means, aperture priority pre-set to whatever aperture, screen off, external view finder and full press snap. But if I do need to change anything, screen on, make a adjustment etc. Pretty good. Still wants to turn itself off occasionally but good enough. However, I do miss the manual focus, manual everything Leica for this sort of shooting.

Question is do I miss it 4K worth.
 
Should clarify. I use a camera like a caveman. I want to set the shutter speed and aperture ...

Question is do I miss it 4K worth.

Have you considered a used M8 already? You might be very happy with it, and I see them locally at very reduced prices (around €1000 euro) these days.
 
I feel like if I'm going to make the investment, I might as well do it right the first time. I have 28mm and 35mm Leica mount lenses and want to retain the effective focal lengths.
 
In my brief foray into digital, I used a D7000, and I didn't really find it felt like a computer in between me and a picture. I find cameras with EVFs do a little bit, as in the dark you'll see the noise, if you move fast it'll smear a bit.

I find digital with optical finders feels OK.
 
M9.

Set it to DNG, ISO 160, auto WB, disable auto image review and set the sleep setting to something long, or turn it off (but bring enough batteries if you do). At this point, if you like, tape over the LCD display. On/off, shutter speed, aperture, focus, viewfinder... are all analog. The only digital you'll see is the red exposure LEDs in the viewfinder. Perhaps the only thing you'll want to check occasionally is battery status and card capacity, which must be done via the info button.

So long as you're within 2-3 stops of correct exposure, on the dark side, you can push the files for satisfactory image quality. Of course, the closer the better. Don't over expose (much)... the DNGs clip highlights quickly.

Last year there were discussions about this camera being "ISO-less" whereby you set it at base ISO (160) and just shoot the shutter speed and aperture value you want for the situation, then push the files in post, if necessary. The findings were that you can set it in-camera up to ISO 640 and results will be pretty much equal, whether in-camera or pushed in post. In darker environments, just leave it at 640 and push the DNGs as needed - the results will be better than setting the camera to higher ISOs.

If it's a sunny or bright day, I tend to use it with shutter/aperture combinations I know are the correct exposure. No need to meter. Just preset and shoot (though you can do this with any camera)

As for other cameras that get out of my way... the only other I've used are the Canon 1 series. I suspect other brands' top end pro cameras will function similarly. But with these, I've used them so long they're intuitive and extremely responsive... but because of AF, there is sometimes still a lag if it's set to focus priority over shutter release priority. In this respect, the digital M is the only currently available 'computer' in an analog body that I can think of... It's one potential flaw is wake from sleep time, if you let it sleep... it takes a couple seconds and you will miss images. Therefore, turn this off, or if you're on the prowl, remember to keep tapping the shutter release every so often to make sure it's ready.
 
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