Digital rangefinder cameras please?

[Avotius]

I wish canon would team up with someone or something and come up with a camera that has a 5D sensor or for an afordable model, one with a 20D sensor (both killer imaging chips as we all know) and keep the price low (no flashy gimicks in there, just simple camera) then it would sell like wild fire

 

[Kev T]

Canon Cmos

Canon Cmos

I wish canon would team up with someone or something and come up with a camera that has a 5D sensor or for an afordable model, one with a 20D sensor (both killer imaging chips as we all know) and keep the price low (no flashy gimicks in there, just simple camera) then it would sell like wild fire

Hi Avotius,

I assume that you're referring to using Canon's proprietary Cmos iamging sensors in an RF camera to be made by a company other than Canon themselves?

Unlike Sony who sells a large proportion of their imaging sensors to various other camera manufacturers, Canon has thus far kept their sensors for their own production lines... It is not likely at all that they will share their sensor technology with anybody-else!

However, the features that Canon had built onto their sensors such as on-chip noise reduction, etc, can be similarly engineered by other manufacturers of Cmos imaging sensors...

I know of at least 2 companies that will supply high performance Cmos imaging devices... Fill Factory / Cypress and Altasens. Aside from these, I'm sure there are other imaging device manufacturers I'm not aware of... Or if a company has already designed their own unique Cmos imager device, thay can also approach any wafer fabrication plants directly to make such Cmos exclusively.

Of course, you're right to suggest the obvious, which is the existing Canon sensors, but as things stand at this point, Canon is probably not inclined to share their proprietary technologies with any body-else!

Regards,
Kev

 

[bmattock]

Kodak is a huge manufacturer of image chips, and supplied many MF digital back makers.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[rvaubel]

You know, the whole digital rangefinder community (all 80 of us) is depending on Leica to provide a long range solution. What if the dM is never released or leica goes belly up? What if we're left with the RD only to support our digital rangefinder needs? How can I keep my camera going especially the electronics?
This is a hard reality that we will have to face as our precious RD's get longer in the tooth. Mechanically, DAG and other Leica guys can help but ultimately the sensor or some other electronic thingy is going to go south. Then what?
Rex

 

[sychan]

I wonder if Kodak has any overstock of their 14MP sensor upgrade kits for upgrading the Kodak DCS 14n to the 14nx? Hopefully Leica will have a policy like Kodak of offering an upgrade path for their customers on the cameras.
For what it is worth, I think the "live view" sensors such as on the upcoming Panasonic DMC L1 and the current Sony R1 will make most of the benefits of rangefinders over SLR's obsolete. A focus confirmation indicator will compensate for any remaining benefits the split view RF may have over through the lens focusing.

Just come up with something that takes M mount lenses, has a tilt LCD display and a really high quality EVF with live view and focus confirmation. All the necessary technology is actually there already, when you consider that the Sony R1 has all the necessary electronics - it just lacks an M-mount and compactness.

 

[bmattock]

I wonder if Kodak has any overstock of their 14MP sensor upgrade kits for upgrading the Kodak DCS 14n to the 14nx? Hopefully Leica will have a policy like Kodak of offering an upgrade path for their customers on the cameras.
For what it is worth, I think the "live view" sensors such as on the upcoming Panasonic DMC L1 and the current Sony R1 will make most of the benefits of rangefinders over SLR's obsolete. A focus confirmation indicator will compensate for any remaining benefits the split view RF may have over through the lens focusing.

Just come up with something that takes M mount lenses, has a tilt LCD display and a really high quality EVF with live view and focus confirmation. All the necessary technology is actually there already, when you consider that the Sony R1 has all the necessary electronics - it just lacks an M-mount and compactness.

Actually, the technology to watch is OLED. OLED is thousands of times better than LCD displays - the only trouble up to now has been display lifespan, because OLED is organic in nature.

The major problem with the so-called 'Bridge' camera (DSLR but with electronic viewfinder also known as EVF) has been that an LCD viewfinder pretty much sucks for serious work.

The split-sensor solution is one way around that problem - but it is a 'brute force' method that is not the most elegant or cheapest solution. I don't think it has a future.

OLED - if perfected - will make the optical DSLR obsolete overnight, and will probably, as you said, remove some (but not all) of the remaining advantages to a DRF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED

Kodak withdrew from the DSLR arena, but they still supply MF high-mega-pixel imaging chips to the digital back manufacturers (22 mp, 33 mp, etc). They dissolved a cooperative venture with Sanyo on OLED technology that was not getting them where they wanted to go and moved ahead IMMEDIATELY with new technology sharing and licensing agreements. This is all RECENT - type in Kodak and OLED into Google news and check it out.

I keep an eye on these things, and people tell me stuff. Things are about to get exciting.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[rvaubel]

Bill
What you said about optical viewfinders is true. Right now, they are better but not forever. A hi-res evf on a rangefinder form, M mount body would be fine with me. I know this is heresy among the optical crowd, but I just want a camera that handles like a Leica, no menues, functionally clean, intuitive and unobstrusive. It can even have autofocus as long as I can overide it like on the canon L lenses.
Rex

 

[bmattock]

Bill
What you said about optical viewfinders is true. Right now, they are better but not forever. A hi-res evf on a rangefinder form, M mount body would be fine with me. I know this is heresy among the optical crowd, but I just want a camera that handles like a Leica, no menues, functionally clean, intuitive and unobstrusive. It can even have autofocus as long as I can overide it like on the canon L lenses.
Rex

You're describing a Contax G2 with digital sensor and M-mount, I think. Something close to that, like a bastard child of the G2 and the Konica Hexar RF with digital DNA. Cool.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Warren G]

Hasselblad have been shipping high end products with OLED technology for sometime now ( since Sept 05) in the form of the H2D. having seen the displays they hold their brightness and contrast in different lighting conditions and even if you look at the dispay from an angle.I beleive they will shortly be delivering the H2D 39 Mix units as well!

Best,

W

 

[bmattock]

Hasselblad have been shipping high end products with OLED technology for sometime now ( since Sept 05) in the form of the H2D. having seen the displays they hold their brightness and contrast in different lighting conditions and even if you look at the dispay from an angle.I beleive they will shortly be delivering the H2D 39 Mix units as well!

Best,

W

http://www.oled-info.com/devices.html

Currently:

BenQ E521 - 5MP digital camera, with a 2.0" (640x240) OLED screen
Hasselblad H2D-39 - Professional 39MP digital camera, with a 2.2" OLED display
Hasselblad 503CWD - Professional 16MP digital camera, with a 2.2" OLED display
Kinetta Digital Cinema - Digital movie-camera
Kodak EasyShare LS633 - The world's first digital camera with an OLED screen
Sanyo Xacti HD1 - High definition digital media camera, with a 2.2" OLED screen
Sinarback eMotion - Professional digital camera back, with a 2.2", 116K pixels OLED screen

I believe that Kodak licensed the OLED technology to Fujifilm that Hasselblad is using for this digital back. But I could be wrong about that.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[lushd]

This is also why cup holders are not as popular in Europe as they are in the N. America.

We've got miles upon miles of long stretching roads, we want to be comfortable when "cruising" our large, sofa-like automobiles.

I just took a road trip from Chicago -> Detroit -> Miami. My GPS logged 43 hours behind the wheels, try doing that in western Europe, and you'll find yourself in Mesopotamia after 43 hours. And you wonder why our driving cultures are different?

Driving culture in the UK certainly is different. If you spent 43 hours behind the wheel here you would still be in the queue to get off the M25. Mesopotamia would be a distant dream!

 

[Gid]

Driving culture in the UK certainly is different. If you spent 43 hours behind the wheel here you would still be in the queue to get off the M25. Mesopotamia would be a distant dream!

As a regular M25 user, I'll second that. 😀

 

[rvaubel]

bastard child

bastard child

More than a digital G2/Hexar as the viewfinder would be an 1meg+ EVF with imput signal coming from the sensor like in a point n' shoot. With this arrangment, we would have a SLR without the mirror and a rangefinder without framelines, parrellax, little focusing prisms and other rangefinding complications. It would look and feel like a rangefinder. Of course no one has developed a sensor that big that allows live viewing. Actually thats not true as my Canon 20Da (the astrophotography model) allows live view for focusing but its pretty limited.
Rex

 

[Sparrow]

Manual box is definitely the best, in the UK, and auto in the US, the best ever off road vehicle is a hire car, and remind me again why I cant have a manual camera with a full frame sensor, I could live with a Bessa L at 12mp, anybody else?

 

[DougK]

More than a digital G2/Hexar as the viewfinder would be an 1meg+ EVF with imput signal coming from the sensor like in a point n' shoot. With this arrangment, we would have a SLR without the mirror and a rangefinder without framelines, parrellax, little focusing prisms and other rangefinding complications. It would look and feel like a rangefinder. Of course no one has developed a sensor that big that allows live viewing. Actually thats not true as my Canon 20Da (the astrophotography model) allows live view for focusing but its pretty limited.
Rex

The Minolta Dimage A2 had a beautiful 922,000 pixel EVF. Doesn't sound like much until you consider that most higher-end external LCD panels on cameras have around 250,000-280,000, EVFs usually about the same.

 

[rvaubel]

I wasn't aware that the Dimage had a 922,000 pixel EFV. I quess I must have meant a 3meg EVF, or what every it takes to be better than an optical viewfinder.
Rex

 

[bmattock]

I wasn't aware that the Dimage had a 922,000 pixel EFV. I quess I must have meant a 3meg EVF, or what every it takes to be better than an optical viewfinder.
Rex

Only the A2, as I recall, had a monster EVF. And they stopped doing that. Well, now they've stopped doing cameras completely, but you know what I mean. The A2 was a one-off, a special item.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[sychan]

You haven't looked through the EVF of the Dimage A2, have you? Its excellent - not really good enough for manual focusing, but way ahead of what you probably are used to.

It doesn't need to be better than optical (people can't even agree if a digital image is better than a analog one) it just has to be good enough to see the necessary details on your subject (maybe facial expressions, etc...) and have some form of focusing aid (like a focus indicator or really hires display). I'd guess that a good 1-2MP EVF, focus indicator and real time histogram would more than do the trick.
Forget about all the split image mechanics and RF coupling business. Just put that M-mount lens on it, and focus it like an SLR. The benefit will be that through various M-mount adapters, you'll be able to use virtually every other manufacturer's SLR lenses.

I wasn't aware that the Dimage had a 922,000 pixel EFV. I quess I must have meant a 3meg EVF, or what every it takes to be better than an optical viewfinder.
Rex

 

[sychan]

Check out this page: http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/press/2003/d-ila.html

Looks like the market for LCD projectors produces the kind of miniature LCD's that are ideal for EVF's. The search term to find these seems to be "micro display".

Only the A2, as I recall, had a monster EVF. And they stopped doing that. Well, now they've stopped doing cameras completely, but you know what I mean. The A2 was a one-off, a special item.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

You haven't looked through the EVF of the Dimage A2, have you? Its excellent - not really good enough for manual focusing, but way ahead of what you probably are used to.

Yes, I have. And it is very nice. And very gone. Several generations ago, and now the company that made it as well.

It doesn't need to be better than optical (people can't even agree if a digital image is better than a analog one) it just has to be good enough to see the necessary details on your subject (maybe facial expressions, etc...) and have some form of focusing aid (like a focus indicator or really hires display).

Perhaps it does not have to be better than optical - but it has to be better than what is currently available for EVF technology. The A2 was good, but even that had refresh speed problems, so panning was a problem. Sorry, it was not even close to a 'real' DSLR - not yet. Perhaps in time.

I'd guess that a good 1-2MP EVF, focus indicator and real time histogram would more than do the trick.

And faster updating, let's not forget that.

Forget about all the split image mechanics and RF coupling business. Just put that M-mount lens on it, and focus it like an SLR. The benefit will be that through various M-mount adapters, you'll be able to use virtually every other manufacturer's SLR lenses.

A 'real' rangefinder has abilities that work when a contrast-based AF or AF indicator does not. I love my Pentax *ist DS - and I find it very easy to fool my AF indicator. Sorry, but is not that good. My RF patch is nearly always just right.

I love new tech, and I am no luddite - I buy and enjoy as many of the new cameras and tech as I can afford (admittedly not much). When it is soup, I'll be the first to declare it. I think OLED technology is a good step in that direction - LCD EVF's are a dead end. Just my 2 cents.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks