Dilemma: manual and film - or digital mini-wonder-do-it-all?

[Doctor Zero]

I don't want to sound like an old moaning fart (I'm not old, or moaning, or a fart 😎 ). But every so often, well, it feels as though I'm loosing the faith. I piddle around with f-stops and shutter speeds and in the end, I am no longer sure I do any better than if I'd used the latest digital do-it-all. 😕

Point in case - the lab went bowling. I brought my R2, 4th generation 35mm 'cron, flash bracket and cheapy flash. It normally works well. This time, I'd had too much beer, got the settings wrong, and most pictures are grossly underexposed. And I looked like a {deleted} with this contraption of a camera. A friend had brought his small digital do-it-all. Took many more pictures, much faster - and they came out much better. And he didn't have to worry about anything, the camera all sorted it out for him: f-stops and iso and all.

Two days later, it's cold and frosty in Cambridge. On the second day, I remember to bring a camera and film and things. I walk past the same friend, now bragging about how he always takes his small digital wonder with him and had, that morning, taken some macro-shots with the handy little macrosetting. I think of what I would need to bring to do macro - and just give up.

I look at it, my collection of negatives and prints (all 4 by 6, of course, bar a few enlargements) and wonder. Is it really all worth it? Yes, occasionally I produce something that's good, and you couldn't do it with a digital (unless the M8, of course 😀 ). But that's rare.

I don't mean to start a huge thread on which is better, film or digital. Or even, whether you need this glass or that camera. I don't think I take the world's best pictures and what limits my pictures is my vision, not my camera. Which reinforces the thought - for the price of my 'cron I could pick up a halfway decent digital wonder and produce equally good if not better pictures. I could sell the rest of my stuff and have lots of money left for beer (possibly a good reason not to sell up... 😱 ).

I'm aware this message isn't really going anywhere. I guess I just wonder - anybody else ever tempted? Does the fun of f-stops and shutter speeds and rangefinders every leave you when you see some newfangled gadget take better pictures than you do? Ever think - why don't I just give in to the Dark Side?

Apologies for the moan. To much self-contemplation towards the end of the year I guess!

Doctor Zero

EDIT: P.S. Moderators: feel free to delete this thread if you consider it a dangerous line of thought 😀 !

 

[dazedgonebye]

By all means, buy a nice little digicam to keep in the glovebox. Maybe a Canon powershot S3.
That doesn't mean you have to abandon your all manual film thing. It just means that if you're out drinking and bowling, you'll have something handy that's nearly beer consumption proof.

 

[markinlondon]

I'd go along with what Steve suggested. Get a small digi for those things your Bessa can't do, OR get a macro lens for your FM2 if that's what you're missing most. A 55mm or 105mm Micro-Nikkor would be great.

 

[akptc]

Clearly, you need to buy the R-D1 and keep the 'cron. It's virtually imposible to get a crapy shot with thr R-D1 and with the nice lens on it, you will be dancing circles around your friend's pictures. And manual focusing gets easier with every beer 😀 Of course, macro is another thing entirely...

 

[FPjohn]

Digital wonder

Digital wonder

Hello:

Of course, get a digital wonder! Some not only work if you have a beer but can be placed in the beer.

Cheers
Frank

PS Do not succumb to upgradeitis later.

 

[Gid]

I'll also echo what Steve said. There are plenty of RFFers who own P&S digitals and there are times when you want a camera that'll do it all for you, especially after a few beers. There are good deals to be had on the Canon A610/620 (now discontinued) which has a reasonable optical viewfinder, plenty of manual control for when you want it and a 2cm macro capability. However, there are lots to choose from and in the right hands they can all make good pictures. You're not alone in your struggle, but there is something special about getting a good shot that you've had to work for. Ultimately they are all just tools and you should choose the one that works best for you.

Don't give up the fight😉

 

[DougK]

You're not crazy at all. I feel like struggle with my film cameras to make a shot worthy of a 4" x 6" print and then a casual snapshot from my digicam (Olympus C-7070WZ, if you're interested) winds up being made into an 11" x 14" print. Both methods produce results, it's just more fun to use film.

 

[like2fiddle]

Why not a small digi-cam for those moments that take you by surprise, or when you perhaps shouldn't be handling that expensive lens? You can still have the film rig for the times you are feeling more creative or want to be more in control. It may just be me, but I enjoy the process of taking the photos more than looking at them later, and that's probably one of the main reasons I shoot film, and totally manually.

 

[rbiemer]

Or, there is a number of pretty good film P&S cameras out there. I have two that I use in just the sort of situation you mentioned(beer drinking outings I mean). Olympus stylus Epic (Miju?) or the Pentax UC-1(Espio). I paid well under $100 US for each of them. The Stylus was new and the UC-1 was apparently never used by it's previous owner.
Rob

 

[wintoid]

Apologies for the moan. To much self-contemplation towards the end of the year I guess!

Very honest post. I'm sure lots of us have felt this way at times.

For me, the killer word in all this is FLASH. I don't put a flash on my rangefinders if I can possibly avoid it. Maybe this is a style thing, or a what-I-like thing, but I'd rather be running with a high ISO film and a wide aperture than with flash. On Christmas day, my Olympus 35SP was loaded with Neopan 1600 and I rated it at around ISO2400 or ISO3200. I'm delighted with my shots, and no digi P+S could have made those shots.

Having said that, add beer into the equation, and I'd have probably gone for high ISO + flash + f8.0. Did I just say flash? Well yeah, because I don't drink alcohol, so I'd never be in this position 😀

 

[RayPA]

There's nothing wrong with using a digital camera to record those typical 'gathering' type events. I love my friends and family, but I hate scanning endless snapshots of them. On Christmas day, I used my DSLR to record the typical snapshots of the events, but I also took along my rf for nice informal portraits.
.

 

[Kyle]

I know how you feel. However, I enjoy not just the result of my photography, but the whole process. I like holding the camera up to my eye, I like adjusting the f/stops and shutter speed, I like focusing, I like taking photographs. I can sell all my film gear, get a good DSLR and get similar results with less work, but like I said, I enjoy the process. So thats why I stick with film. If it ever becomes a chore, I'll just switch to a full digital setup.

Anyways, there are times where I wish for a little P&S digicam for snapshots (as Ray else said, scanning endless snapshots of friends gets old) and for days when I want to take pictures but don't want to carry even a Leica M and small wide angle. My solution? Last night I finally buckled and ordered a Ricoh GR-D from Tony Rose at Popflash. 🙂

 

[hth]

I tried the path you mention, got a small digicam and had fun with it. I even took some decent pictures with it, but today I see it as a complement to my film gear. When I need something fast to upload, I use it, otherwise hardly ever. A real film camera is much more fun.

At the last beer outing, I used an M2 loaded with ISO 400 and 800 film, and 50/1.2 lens. I got at least some decent pictures, even though I got more drunk as time passed and I used it more or less wide open all the time. I preset/guessed exposure and just worried about focusing.

By all means, get a small digicam, they are useful, but do not sell your film gear. I think you will end up using both, and over time find out what you prefer to use in different situations.

Maybe you also should try some faster film instead of flash? I have found that I like up ISO 400 film, and can accept ISO 800 in color, but not the faster B&W films.

/Håkan

 

[40oz]

"Point in case - the lab went bowling. I brought my R2, 4th generation 35mm 'cron, flash bracket and cheapy flash. It normally works well. This time, I'd had too much beer, got the settings wrong, and most pictures are grossly underexposed. And I looked like a {deleted} with this contraption of a camera."

Did you have fun?

I've found that without failure, success is rather tasteless. Frustration is better than apathy. I've got an APS Canon Elph that takes fantastic pictures, and often is just the thing for what I'm doing. I used to have a nice little Fuji digital P&S that was always surprising me, but traded up for one with more manual settings, and can't seem to be happy with the pictures - I blame the lens 🙂.

Cameras are tools. Sometimes, you don't need a hammer, no matter what your carpentry skills. P&S cameras are made for snapshots. Some are excellent for "photography" as well. Whether it is digital or film makes no difference, any more than whether your film is 24mm or 4" wide, IMHO.

When I come home from a fun night out and find my pictures are all underexposed crap, I just mark it down as a learning experience, and try to have a mess of overexposure next time 🙂 Nobody ever asks to see the pictures later, but when you show them the ones that do turn out, they love it, which is why I keep doing it.

 

[ampguy]

get a fuji f30, or f31, or that v10

get a fuji f30, or f31, or that v10

they're fast and small, work great in low light.

I don't want to sound like an old moaning fart (I'm not old, or moaning, or a fart 😎 ). But every so often, well, it feels as though I'm loosing the faith. I piddle around with f-stops and shutter speeds and in the end, I am no longer sure I do any better than if I'd used the latest digital do-it-all. 😕

Point in case - the lab went bowling. I brought my R2, 4th generation 35mm 'cron, flash bracket and cheapy flash. It normally works well. This time, I'd had too much beer, got the settings wrong, and most pictures are grossly underexposed. And I looked like a {deleted} with this contraption of a camera. A friend had brought his small digital do-it-all. Took many more pictures, much faster - and they came out much better. And he didn't have to worry about anything, the camera all sorted it out for him: f-stops and iso and all.

Two days later, it's cold and frosty in Cambridge. On the second day, I remember to bring a camera and film and things. I walk past the same friend, now bragging about how he always takes his small digital wonder with him and had, that morning, taken some macro-shots with the handy little macrosetting. I think of what I would need to bring to do macro - and just give up.

I look at it, my collection of negatives and prints (all 4 by 6, of course, bar a few enlargements) and wonder. Is it really all worth it? Yes, occasionally I produce something that's good, and you couldn't do it with a digital (unless the M8, of course 😀 ). But that's rare.

I don't mean to start a huge thread on which is better, film or digital. Or even, whether you need this glass or that camera. I don't think I take the world's best pictures and what limits my pictures is my vision, not my camera. Which reinforces the thought - for the price of my 'cron I could pick up a halfway decent digital wonder and produce equally good if not better pictures. I could sell the rest of my stuff and have lots of money left for beer (possibly a good reason not to sell up... 😱 ).

I'm aware this message isn't really going anywhere. I guess I just wonder - anybody else ever tempted? Does the fun of f-stops and shutter speeds and rangefinders every leave you when you see some newfangled gadget take better pictures than you do? Ever think - why don't I just give in to the Dark Side?

Apologies for the moan. To much self-contemplation towards the end of the year I guess!

Doctor Zero

EDIT: P.S. Moderators: feel free to delete this thread if you consider it a dangerous line of thought 😀 !

 

[JeffGreene]

Maybe you also should try some faster film instead of flash? I have found that I like up ISO 400 film, and can accept ISO 800 in color, but not the faster B&W films.

/Håkan

I felt the same way about the fast B&W's, but try pushing them to 3200 or 6400 from 1600. Film is deliberative and thoughtful for me. I also enjoy the process of setting fstops, apertures and shutter speeds. Digital P&S's are great for spur of the moment events. I've got a Panasonic LX2 and love it. It doesn't have to be either or!

 

[Doctor Zero]

All very helpful comments - thank you all! I feel better about it now.

I agree with the various comments that sometimes it's the taking of the picture that's the most fun. The tinkering with f-stops and trying to figure out what I want to be in focus etc. This is why I get a kick out of manual cameras (and may even decide to go meterless).

Plus, it really is a learning experience, as suggested. I would normally uprate film - but got stuck with a 200-speed colour film. And closed the aperture one more stop than the flash guide number suggested. Usually this avoids the glaringly obvious flash, but it was too dark for that this time.

I am intrigued by the idea of getting a small P&S for those occasions where the beer-god gets the better of me.

And it's good to hear that I'm not the only one who looks at the Dark Side every so often and thinks: why not try it?

Many good suggestions, very kindly put. That's why I love this forum!

Thanks all - and a happy new year!

Doctor Zero

 

[Nick R.]

My first (and only) rule of photography:
Never let equipment get in the way of taking photos.

You've identified the situation where your "regular" equipment gets in the way, and you've identified a solution. Buy the P&S and don't look back. Those missed moments are gone forever.

It should be noted, however, that if you really want to stick with film, a film based P&S would work just as well: Leica mini, contax, disposable camera (don't laugh), all are a pretty cheap film-based solution.

 

[back alley]

i have the panasonic fz20.
i use it for all work related shooting. it's so easy i started a blog for work stuff and now shoot and post and get time off for it. 🙂

this is supposed to be fun and using film, processing negs and scanning a whole swack of pics that are work related isn't fun.
not for me anyway.

 

[morgan]

Very honest post. I'm sure lots of us have felt this way at times.

For me, the killer word in all this is FLASH. I don't put a flash on my rangefinders if I can possibly avoid it. Maybe this is a style thing, or a what-I-like thing, but I'd rather be running with a high ISO film and a wide aperture than with flash. On Christmas day, my Olympus 35SP was loaded with Neopan 1600 and I rated it at around ISO2400 or ISO3200. I'm delighted with my shots, and no digi P+S could have made those shots.

I agree. I never use a flash with my rangefinders, although I guess Weegee could make a good case for using a flash. Even with my canon dslr, my nighttime walkaround is a 24 1.4L and I set the ISO to 1600 or 3200 and avoid the flash if at all possible.