BillP
Rangefinder General
Yes.
You are.
By your measure, if you bought a Ferrari then tried to cross a field in it...
...or an Armani suit and wore it for mountaineering...
That Mont Blanc you bought - did it not write on brick walls...?
Get real. Ts & Cs are there to protect companies against user stupidity and vexatious claims.
Regards,
Bill
R
Roberto
Guest
Bill,
to me it is more like buying a Porsche Cayenne and trying to cross a field: it should work by some extent..All in all M8 is a professional camera, not a toy: I expect it to work where another Leica M would work..
Maybe I misunderstood what it is anyway...
Rob.
Sparrow
Veteran
I would say more like putting Quink ink in a Mont Blanc or Castrol instead Shell oil in a Ferrari. Contravenes the Terms and Conditions but by enough to warrant outright rejection of the claim??
ThatOneGuy
Member
Absolutely terms and conditions are there to protect the company, but it is idiotic if those terms and conditions exclude using the product in the capacity for which was sold. Then instead of protecting the company from unreasonable (not vexatious, as that would be something different entirely) claims, it serves to protect the company from having to take responsibility for any defect in their product. In this case, exposure to "moisture" is so vague that Leica could use it in any situation in which a camera fails for an unexplained reason and relieve themselves of any duty to repair it. It's like the clause in some mountain bike warranties that void the warranty if the bike is ridden on dirt...
Aside from that, your analogy about the ferrari, suit, and pen completely miss the mark. If, however, I were to buy a ferrari which is marketed as a high performance race car, race it under normal circumstances, and have it fail only to find out that racing voids the warranty then I would be very justified in feeling cheated. A product should live up to how it is marketed, not to the lawyer doublespeak included in the manual that you don't even see until after you buy it.
If the M8 were marketed as a shelf ornament for rich morons, I doubt anybody would care that a little moisture kills it and that Leica won't repair it under warranty. The same would probably hold true if it sold for $500. But the bottom line is that it is marketed as a camera for professional use in a world where all other professional digital cameras have featured weather sealing from the start, as an equal to film Ms which are famous for reliability in all conditions, and sells for $5,500. Not only does the camera not live up to those marketing claims, but the company knows it and hides behind sneaky warranty terms rather than improving the camera.
Ben Z
Veteran
Forgive me if this has already been said, but I didn't have time to read through all the responses to the same thread on three different forums.
I feel sorry for the O.P.'s predicament, I really do. I don't disblieve that his camera is kaput due to moisture intrusion. However I think it's odd that if the M8 was really so poorly resistant to moisture damage, that we haven't heard of multiple cases of this happening, as we have heard of multiple shutter failures and SDS. I'm sure it's naive to think that of the 12,000 or so M8's out there in use that everybody is only using them when it's bone dry. My M8 has never had a problem, and I live in a humid, tropical climate, 5 minutes from the ocean. I've used my M8 in drizzle and even light rain, with reasonable caution. I used the same caution with my old Canon 1V, which was "weather sealed", because not all of the lenses I had had the o-rings.
I feel sorry for the O.P.'s predicament, I really do. I don't disblieve that his camera is kaput due to moisture intrusion. However I think it's odd that if the M8 was really so poorly resistant to moisture damage, that we haven't heard of multiple cases of this happening, as we have heard of multiple shutter failures and SDS. I'm sure it's naive to think that of the 12,000 or so M8's out there in use that everybody is only using them when it's bone dry. My M8 has never had a problem, and I live in a humid, tropical climate, 5 minutes from the ocean. I've used my M8 in drizzle and even light rain, with reasonable caution. I used the same caution with my old Canon 1V, which was "weather sealed", because not all of the lenses I had had the o-rings.
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gavinlg
Veteran
I completely disagree.
The correct analogy would be that you buy a ferrari and it rains on the way to a track day, and all the electronics fail because they aren't protected from moisture.
The m8 is designed primarily as a photojournalist tool, out of all the genres it comes closest to being that. The whole no weathersealing on a 5K camera thing is ludicrous.
reinierv
Member
do you rember Lieca's own campain..."Can your camera take a beating?"
You can imagine I had a cynical laugh about this...
jsut at an interview with Leica reps on the Kina that "bragged" about the quality of Leica camera's
Leaving in the middle what the cause was...an repair bill of 3340euro indeed is outragous. And maybe that is the point that pisses me off most, even with the replacement of the entire interior, that is not a realistic quote, simply because they can simply screw the serial number onto another body and then will come to a lower price quote as they did now.
You can imagine I had a cynical laugh about this...
jsut at an interview with Leica reps on the Kina that "bragged" about the quality of Leica camera's
Leaving in the middle what the cause was...an repair bill of 3340euro indeed is outragous. And maybe that is the point that pisses me off most, even with the replacement of the entire interior, that is not a realistic quote, simply because they can simply screw the serial number onto another body and then will come to a lower price quote as they did now.
BillP
Rangefinder General
Rubbish.
Show me an M-series Leica that has ever claimed to be weatherproof. A Hasselblad is, I think you would agree, a "professional camera" (whatever that is? One that you have to be a "professional" to hold??) but I am not aware of a weatherproofed one. The M8, like any digital camera is a computer with glass on the front first. It is inherently more deserving of care in use in use than, for example, an M3, with no electronics at all.
Oh, and I used the term "vexatious" deliberately - as in "...litigant". Reiner has chosen to carpet-bomb any and every forum and website he can to try and drum up some sympathy for his "misfortune".
Leica is a business not a charity. "Boo-hoo" does not work, and quite rightly too.
Regards,
Bill
BillP
Rangefinder General
I hate to introduce balance, or facts into this debate, when some here are having such fun bashing big, bad Leica but:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/59332-waterproof-m8-s.html
Regards,
Bill
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/59332-waterproof-m8-s.html
Regards,
Bill
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
While previous M's (maybe up to the M6 but, I think, more likely, the M4) were definitely (or could definitely) be seen as being used by Photojournalists; the advent of auto focus and auto exposure basically killed the M as the photojournalist's tool.
That said, I don't recall Leica marketing the M8 as a photojournalist's camera.
All I know is, I bought an M8 earlier this year and I knew that I was getting an M but that doesn't mean I'm going to swing it around in my arms in the rain or snow or desert heat - it's not an M3 - it's got much more electronics in it and such.
WRT a $5000 camera not having weather sealing on it - That depends on what it's designed to do. Clearly the Canon 1D series cameras are meant to be rugged tools (and photojournalists do use/abuse them that way) - as such, they have the weather sealing built in. The M8, as I stated, was never marketed as a photojournalist tool and therefore does not have any weather sealing.
Dave
R
Roberto
Guest
Sparrow
Veteran
Frank1969
Member
To answer your money if Leica needs money: NO. They had the design for a 1,0 50mm lens for years. The design was changed a little over the years but the lens was there. As far as I know it did not sell very well but that is another story. Laica apparently has enough money and time to invest in a totally new design for a 0.95 50mm lens. A huge benefit of course over the old model that Leica thinks will sell so much better.
Leica has a mediocre M8 but does not invest any money and time in making this a real professional camera. They invest time and money in an S2. A camera already outdated by the time it is realeased although some hardcore Leica taliban think that this is a fantastic new product that can compete with Hasselblad.
So there you have your answer.
Leica has a mediocre M8 but does not invest any money and time in making this a real professional camera. They invest time and money in an S2. A camera already outdated by the time it is realeased although some hardcore Leica taliban think that this is a fantastic new product that can compete with Hasselblad.
So there you have your answer.
photogdave
Shops local
You literally took the words out of my mouth!
Please show us the Leica ad that says "Hey photojournalists! Try the M8 - takes a licking and keeps on clicking!"
Even "back in the day" the Leica wasn't aimed squarely at PJs, it just happened to be one of the cameras that many of them used.
As to the "outrageous" repair cost, well yes it's a lot of money but let's put it in perspective. My Panasonic LC1 had a total power failure in the middle of a shoot. The repair estimate to replace the main board was $700. THe power surge (or whatever happened) that fried the board also damaged an AF sensor in the lens assembly. The whole lens assembly has to be replaced and the estimate for that is also $700. So the total repair is $300 more than the camera cost new.
I wish Panasonic was as unreasonable as Leica!
reinierv
Member
so much disbelieve and still no-one placing a bet I can not come up with written statements from tour members
come-on guys, put in that 10er or more, I had a loss so need the money
come-on guys, put in that 10er or more, I had a loss so need the money
BillP
Rangefinder General
Far be it from me to make such an accusation. I merely observe inconsistencies between the story told and the damage shown, and between the stated experience of the OP and other M8 owners with no axe to grind.
It may of course be that not all M8s are created equal, but I am more inclined to apply Occams Razor and believe that people are less consistent than manufactured items. A story is a story. Evidence is evidence. I know which I would rely upon if called to make a judgement, as Leica have done.
Whether or not the OP is being mendacious is entirely up to him and his conscience.
Regards,
Bill
Sparrow
Veteran
So would you, if asked, want to see your judgment to become a precedent for any faulty camera?
I don’t think “the majority don’t fail therefore none fail” would be a terribly good marketing strategy myself
I don’t think “the majority don’t fail therefore none fail” would be a terribly good marketing strategy myself
BillP
Rangefinder General
No, Stewart, that would be one-dimensional and naive. The point I am making is that I would be more inclined to give weight to evidence than testimony and the evidence that we have been shown in this case appears inconsistent with the tale being told.
Regards,
Bill
Regards,
Bill
Sparrow
Veteran
Bill
I’m not qualified to judge the evidence, or the validity of the story for that matter, and every time I’ve got a camera wet it has cost me money. But the cost here is almost the full value of the camera and that seems unreasonable, I am just surprised a compromise wasn’t offered.
Stewart
I’m not qualified to judge the evidence, or the validity of the story for that matter, and every time I’ve got a camera wet it has cost me money. But the cost here is almost the full value of the camera and that seems unreasonable, I am just surprised a compromise wasn’t offered.
Stewart
micromontenegro
Well-known
If that's true, the (here) OP should sue Leica: some M8s work underwater, ans his was damaged by a little rain!