Does Leica take advantage of their M users?

Nick, I'm sure you have no problems dis-availing yourself from the menus and modes in modern cameras. But what about others who may suffer from analysis paralysis? Aesop has an example in his fable The Fox and the Cat, where the moral is ""Better one safe way than a hundred on which you cannot reckon."

To use a more modern example, consider Netflix (or other on-demand video streaming service). With all the choices at our fingertips, how many of us have spent an hour browsing for something to watch, only to watch nothing in the end?

Or consider how modern photographers (myself included) obsess over features, specs, resolution, and megapixels, yet struggle with good composition or making a compelling image?
 
dourbalistar said:
Nick, I'm sure you have no problems dis-availing yourself from the menus and modes in modern cameras. But what about others who may suffer from analysis paralysis? Aesop has an example in his fable The Fox and the Cat, where the moral is ""Better one safe way than a hundred on which you cannot reckon."
Click to expand...
I think that is fine as long as you admit that the problem is you and not the camera. Rarely happens. Default is to blame the camera.
 
ptpdprinter said:
I think that is fine as long as you admit that the problem is you and not the camera. Rarely happens. Default is to blame the camera.
Click to expand...

You`ve never used a camera that didn`t work for you? One that you didn`t like? or do you love them all equally? Sure, that might be a problem with the person, but there are certainly poorly designed products. We can all use anything to make photographs, but the reason there are so many types of cameras is to meet different needs / wants of the people using them.
 
jsrockit said:
You`ve never used a camera that didn`t work for you? One that you didn`t like? or do you love them all equally? Sure, that might be a problem with the person, but there are certainly poorly designed products. We can all use anything to make photographs, but the reason there are so many types of cameras is to meet different needs / wants of the people using them.
Click to expand...
My first camera, an Exakta VXii, didn't work out for me, largely because it was unreliable, but I really haven't had any problem with any of my other cameras over the past 40 or so years. They are just tools.
 
dourbalistar said:
Nick, I'm sure you have no problems dis-availing yourself from the menus and modes in modern cameras. But what about others who may suffer from analysis paralysis? Aesop has an example in his fable The Fox and the Cat, where the moral is ""Better one safe way than a hundred on which you cannot reckon."

To use a more modern example, consider Netflix (or other on-demand video streaming service). With all the choices at our fingertips, how many of us have spent an hour browsing for something to watch, only to watch nothing in the end?

Or consider how modern photographers (myself included) obsess over features, specs, resolution, and megapixels, yet struggle with good composition or making a compelling image?
Click to expand...

Here's the false equivalency in your analysis. Yes. I have Netflix. Yes I have scrolled past offerings and have actuallly watched a bunch of trailers and wound up just watching trailers and either dozed off or decided to do something else...

However, I have many menus and choices at my fingertips with respect to how my TV is set up. What screen saver, different picture "modes". Brightness contrast settings, "cinema" mode, many more.

However, I don't let these choices "get in the way" of how I consume this content. Like I hit the "power button" and flip to the channel (or service) I want and press "select".

Despite having menus and submenus of choices, that I could easily obsess over (if I was insane), I set-up the TV when I first got it and now only use a very few of the scads of modes and choices available. I simply tune to Ancient Aliens, pro-rasslin', Mr Ed reruns (what have you) set back and watch consuming adult libations until I pass out on the sofa only to wake up bewildered and disoriented at 3:30 am.

Cameras?

Same deal.
 
NickTrop said:
I simply tune to Ancient Aliens, pro-rasslin', Mr Ed reruns (what have you) set back and watch consuming adult libations until I pass out on the sofa only to wake up bewildered and disoriented at 3:30 am.

Cameras?

Same deal.
Click to expand...

But imagine if that TV only had 3 channels with only those options 24/7!
 
Dante_Stella said:
I only bought Leicas because I thought they were Portuguese.... now you're telling me they're German?! Criminy.

Dante
Click to expand...


There bye hangs a tale.
I first "got into " Leica in the early eighties.
Being a birder I bought a pair of Leica Trinovid 8x40 binos only to discover they were made in Portugal.

They`ve been "at it " for years. 🙂
 
Guth said:
When I look at what is inside of the M10 for example, the only logic that makes sense to me when it comes to the pricing structure of the digital M's is the velben reference made elsewhere in this thread.
Click to expand...


Luxury isn't necessarily about logic so much as feelings.
 
Si
ptpdprinter said:
I don't think my photography would have been any different if I had chosen a different camera brand.
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I can tell you one thing, I’ve learned that the Leica M, as beautiful as it is, is one of the worse cameras for what I want to do. I’m not a zoom user or long tele user either... 50mm is my favorite focal length. I’ve come find that I prefer shutter priority, an EVF and AF none of which an M offers.
 
JeffS7444 said:
Luxury isn't necessarily about logic so much as feelings.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is why I pointed out and agreed with the velben reference. Were Leica products overall and M system components in particular priced at far less than they are now, my belief is that those feelings would largely disappear. This would be wonderful for those who are using these cameras as tools of their trade. But only for as long as Leica could remain in business. Under such a pricing model I can’t imagine there being enough demand for their M cameras in particular for Leica to continue on with them. I think that it is a very tricky balancing act that Leica find themselves in.
 
jsrockit said:
Si

I can tell you one thing, I’ve learned that the Leica M, as beautiful as it is, is one of the worse cameras for what I want to do. I’m not a zoom user or long tele user either... 50mm is my favorite focal length. I’ve come find that I prefer shutter priority, an EVF and AF none of which an M offers.
Click to expand...

This …. unfortunately .
I have a zoom although I`m not really a zoom user by inclination.
My tele use only extends to 135mm but I do prefer an EVF and AF .
 
benlees said:
This is probably true. But there are two words in your reply (chosen and brand) that muddy the waters even for you. It's never just a tool.
Click to expand...

I can not look at this statement without thinking of things in the literal sense. When it comes to those who choose to turn their own wrenches, their preferred tools can run a wide gamut. Professional mechanics might choose to purchase tools from the likes of Snap-On, MAC or Wright. The reluctant home mechanic on the other hand might choose to buy whatever Harbor Freight or their local auto parts store might have on sale. The reasoning behind their respective purchases extends beyond simple budget considerations. This is not all that different than how individual photographers prefer certain cameras over others. Price, build quality, support, ergonomics and compatibility with other tools in the system might all come into play to varying degrees. So it goes with photo gear.

The biggest difference in this analogy is that the high-end tool brands hold almost no cachet with the casual mechanic and likely none at all amongst those who never work on anything themselves. Were that the case those tool brands would likely be priced much higher. As things sit now, as long as those actually using the tools find them pleasing to work with or at least useful at a minimum then all is good. But you can bet that forums focused on the mechanics of the world feature conversations about hand tools that are very similar to this and numerous other similar threads. There is nothing new happening here.
 
I will give just two examples of the technology getting in the way.

Auto focus. By the time the lens quits hunting or you move to the right auto focus point the moment is long gone.

Difficult light and when on auto it getting the wrong exposure, missed moment again.

Those are just two examples of the technology getting in the way.

I doubt that will satisfy anyone but me but that, in my case, is all that is important so I to am out.
 
I first got a Contax IIa because I didn't want to get into the whole Leica M "thing", while having a bayonet mount system. But I didn't care for the viewfinder, and switched to a Nikon S2. The body was more to my liking, and it has a better finder, but I still had to use an auxiliary finder (unless I switched to the Bessa R2S, which has a three lens limit).


So I finally broke down and got a Leica M4-P to take advantage of all the frame lines in the finder. It just works better for me, and I like the range of lenses available so I can scrimp a bit by choosing an off brand, while still getting good results. Later on I plan on replacing some of those lenses with Leica models.


I did a lot of bargain shopping to put the kit together, so at least I'm still not totally buying in to the Leica mystique. It is but a means to take photos, albeit a darn fine looking one at that. That is, other than the dent in the top cover that dropped the selling price by at least a couple hundred dollars, and which made me not worry about keeping it pristine.


PF
 
airfrogusmc said:
When I bought my New F-1s in 1982 they were $525 a piece, The price of a Leica M4P IIRC was around $1000. I remember the price being about double because I was actually thinking about buying one.

In the late 1970s I paid almost $500 for the old F-1.
Click to expand...

Looking up prices in Popular Photography, we find that the difference between Leica and other brands still wasn't that big in the times of the M4-P (1980-1986). In 1982, the price of a Leica M4-P was $699.95 on discount. The regular price was $809.95.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3...#v=onepage&q=price for new Leica M4-p&f=false

At the same time, a Canon New F-1 body with the plain finder was $479.95, and $534.95 with the much more common AE finder.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3...or new Leica M4-p&pg=PT44#v=onepage&q&f=false

Here are the original prices:

Leica M4-P (regular price): $809.95
Leica M4-P (discounted): $699.95
Canon New F-1 w/plain finder: $479.95
Canon New F-1 w/AE finder: $534.95

And here are prices adjusted for inflation:

Leica M4-P (regular price): $2,153.47
Leica M4-P (discounted): $1,861
Canon New F-1 w/plain finder: $1,276.08
Canon New F-1 w/AE finder: $1,422.31

If I was shopping in 1982, the most probable scenario would have been whether to get a $699.95 Leica M4-P or a $534.95 Canon New F-1 w/AE finder, so that's just a $165 difference. In today's dollars, we're talking $1860 vs. $1420 ($440). Leicas were not much more expensive than other brands.

This is a great example of why documents are valuable. 😀
 
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