Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
I have to say that the original story and additional comments like this, make me doubt the veracity of the poster. I know that there are aggressive idiots out there, I freely admit I used to be one, but posting statements like this on an open forum tells a great deal more about the poster than about the situation.
As has been stated above, in most western democracies there are two applicable rules: "in public, your face is public" and "violence is not acceptable". The poster seems unaware of these rules so, perhaps, an anger management course would be in order here?
__--
Well-known
Lot of weird statements and emotions in this thread, such as someone being creepy because he keeps his Leica under his jacket and takes it out to take a picture. I'll just deal with the following...
...which also strikes me as weird, not only terms of being stated as a reason to live in Asia but also considering that Asia is a big place with hugely differently cultures. Last week I went to three towns in the Shan State in Burma: Tachilek, Chiang Tung (Kentong) and Myang La (Mongla), as related in this thread.
The reactions to my taking pictures in these three towns were different. In Tachilek, which on the border across the river from Mae Sai in Thailand, the reactions were the same as in Thailand: people don't mind being photographed in the street, although some will look conscious of being photographed because they are thinking, "why is he photographing me, he's not my relative, he doesn't even know me, what's so special about the way I look?" Because many Western tourists cross over from Thailand to Tachilek for a few hours, the people are used to seeing Westerners and it's understandable that the reactions are similar to Thailand.
In Chiang Tung, people are even more open to being photographed, not even exhibiting surprise that they are being photographed. They will just go on doing what they were doing, unless you smile at them and then they will smile back. As so few people speak English, and as there have seen very few Western tourists, they don't try to communicate with the photographer. Now, the Shan speak a language similar to Northern Thai dialects and, in Chiang Tung, understand standard Thai because most of them have access to Thai television and pick up the language watching interminable Thai soap operas. Since I speak Thai, I could communicate with them and they are uniformly friendly, and still don't mind being photographed.
In Myang La, which is an autonomous region in the north of the Shan State on the Chinese border, established by a former Chinese Shan drug lord, which has its own laws and its own army, and which uses the Chinese yuan currency, the tourism comes from China and, now, a trickle from Thailand; but there have been very few western visitors. In this town, except for the bustling market, where people large don't notice or don't react to being photographed, people generally turn their face and put their forearm in front of it when you try to photograph them. The funny thing is that in the countryside to the north and south of Chiang Tung people have exactly the same reaction. When I put my camera up to photograph two beautiful young women having lunch with a man, they turned away and put up their forearms. Then, when I spoke to them in Thai asking if they didn't like being photographed, they answered that they weren't beautiful enough.
The point of all this is that you cannot generalize about Asia when you get such different reactions to being photographed from people, and when these different reactions are uniform within discrete areas close to each other.
—Mitch/Chiang Mai
Chiang Tung Days [direct download link for pdf file for book project]
...which also strikes me as weird, not only terms of being stated as a reason to live in Asia but also considering that Asia is a big place with hugely differently cultures. Last week I went to three towns in the Shan State in Burma: Tachilek, Chiang Tung (Kentong) and Myang La (Mongla), as related in this thread.
The reactions to my taking pictures in these three towns were different. In Tachilek, which on the border across the river from Mae Sai in Thailand, the reactions were the same as in Thailand: people don't mind being photographed in the street, although some will look conscious of being photographed because they are thinking, "why is he photographing me, he's not my relative, he doesn't even know me, what's so special about the way I look?" Because many Western tourists cross over from Thailand to Tachilek for a few hours, the people are used to seeing Westerners and it's understandable that the reactions are similar to Thailand.
In Chiang Tung, people are even more open to being photographed, not even exhibiting surprise that they are being photographed. They will just go on doing what they were doing, unless you smile at them and then they will smile back. As so few people speak English, and as there have seen very few Western tourists, they don't try to communicate with the photographer. Now, the Shan speak a language similar to Northern Thai dialects and, in Chiang Tung, understand standard Thai because most of them have access to Thai television and pick up the language watching interminable Thai soap operas. Since I speak Thai, I could communicate with them and they are uniformly friendly, and still don't mind being photographed.
In Myang La, which is an autonomous region in the north of the Shan State on the Chinese border, established by a former Chinese Shan drug lord, which has its own laws and its own army, and which uses the Chinese yuan currency, the tourism comes from China and, now, a trickle from Thailand; but there have been very few western visitors. In this town, except for the bustling market, where people large don't notice or don't react to being photographed, people generally turn their face and put their forearm in front of it when you try to photograph them. The funny thing is that in the countryside to the north and south of Chiang Tung people have exactly the same reaction. When I put my camera up to photograph two beautiful young women having lunch with a man, they turned away and put up their forearms. Then, when I spoke to them in Thai asking if they didn't like being photographed, they answered that they weren't beautiful enough.
The point of all this is that you cannot generalize about Asia when you get such different reactions to being photographed from people, and when these different reactions are uniform within discrete areas close to each other.
—Mitch/Chiang Mai
Chiang Tung Days [direct download link for pdf file for book project]
ssmc
Well-known
I bought that book sight unseen. The poses and facial expressions struck by that dude taking photographs "without being noticed"... I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. He really needs a fake arm in the right sleeve of his jacket to complete the effect...
btgc
Veteran
For me there's clear border between so called privacy and jerkiness. Right to take pictures in public doesn't mean it should be done by any means if subject is giving signs he doesn't want to be photographed. I believe if someone is acting like a jerk then party may respond in same way. Say, making his nose red or just pulling his white lens down the road. He sure would be more polite next time if he would replace lens soon. I realize I could be arrested for assault or damage but hey, I'm fed up with correctness, where are times when men should stand behind their words and acts...
Addy101
Well-known
Said the guy who was flipping the bird..... :bang:
Next time, be polite, go up to him and make sure he understands you - holding your hand in front of your face isn't that clear at all. And flipping the finger is, well, it simply is rude
ruby.monkey
Veteran
No, you could be beaten senseless with a now-broken lens, or punched in the teeth and then kicked in the head as you lie there bleeding, or stabbed, or shot, or...
Given how easily stupid situations like this can escalate due to ill-considered reactions, being arrested, charged with assault and criminal damage, going through the courts, potentially being sued on top of everything else, and so on, would be the easy option. Beating one's chest and playing the caveman is great over the internet, but absolutely frigging retarded in real life.
Sparrow
Veteran
... yep, that's me too ... hypocritical unless one considers how photogenic I am
oh, and if someone made a rude gesture at me while I was taking his photo I would have continued photographing them too ...
ruby.monkey
Veteran
(Having said all that, I'd pay good money to see Rogier take on Bruce Gilden in a gentlemanly bout of fisticuffs)
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Really? How? Actually, I DON'T believe you.
As others have pointed out, it's easy to be a big tough guy behind your keyboard. If you put on the same act in court, when you're hauled up for assault and battery (or whatever the equivalent is in California), there's a good chance you'll do jail time for it.
Also as others have pointed out anyone who takes photos in public can hardly complain when someone photographs them.
Of course there are different ways to photograph people on the street, some more aggressive than others, but short of someone actually impeding my passage or blinding me with a flash in my face -- which might constitute an assault in its own right -- I can't imagine being offended by someone taking my picture. Certainly, I never have been yet.
Cheers,
R.
Bille
Well-known
jarski
Veteran
I didnt mean all Asian cultures happily wait to be photographed. but this egoistic venting and beating the chest like Tarzan, that you are less likely to see in Asia.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
On the one hand, a great link. On the other, the idea of buying anger management classes makes me angry. Well, it makes me a little bit angry, but mostly it makes me laugh at the ingenuity of people who will seek to make money out of ANYTHING.
Cheers,
R.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Interesting that street photography and its associated vagaries seems to create a lot of threads with a fair amount of chest beating when it goes wrong on either side of the lens!
__--
Well-known
Agreed. Thanks for explaining.
Steveh
Well-known
. Says it all really.I was photographed by a couple of Italian street shooter guys with film Nikons near my office in London a couple of years ago - I was mildly surprised, and mildly curious whether I would show up in someone's documentary photo project, but it didn't occur to me to get angry.
If I assaulted someone for taking my picture while I was with my family I think I'd find myself in the divorce courts before I made it to the criminal ones. Not a great example to set to your kids.
Having said all that I do think the speed of the interaction and what the person looks like has a lot to do with how we react as well - I wouldn't advocate the creepy hidden camera approach, but having a cool Italian 20 something who looks like an art student take a couple of very quick snaps with a 35mm lens on an F3 is a very different experience to looking down the barrel of a white Canon zoom wielded by some middle aged oddball in a photo vest.
Whether we like it or not there is a creepy (and dorky) quality to some photographers you see out and about, particularly the long lens DSLR brigade, and we all make instant subliminal judgements about people we see on the street and how comfortable they make us feel.
Michael Markey
Veteran
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
Very appropriate, Michael!
I imagine that the original poster sees himself rather more like this...
I imagine that the original poster sees himself rather more like this...
Steveh
Well-known
Actually Roger I think there are a huge number of people who could benefit from anger management, they are skills that can be taught and that can and do change people's lives for the better, and even people who provide anger management courses have to eat. There are many worse rip-offs in the personal development world.
Perhaps living in rural France gives you a different perspective to those of us who have to drive on overcrowded roads and battle through major cities for work every day.
judsonzhao
Well-known
So.. let me guess, using leica 'properly', maybe a silver leica hanging on the neck with a smily face, will buy someone the name ''a truly nice artist and photographer'' and distinguish him from jerk/a'hole..
And Canon Nikon tele users can never have that name.. even they finally get a black Leica and say ''hey, finally I get a light portable camera! I no longer want my neck hurt so Imma just put it in my pocket!''
Ad the reason they buy black is just silver runs out, or, they don't like them, who knws, who cares.
And Canon Nikon tele users can never have that name.. even they finally get a black Leica and say ''hey, finally I get a light portable camera! I no longer want my neck hurt so Imma just put it in my pocket!''
Ad the reason they buy black is just silver runs out, or, they don't like them, who knws, who cares.
Steveh
Well-known
. I don't often LOL at internet postings but this one did it for me. "Puuuut the white lennns dooooownnn, scumbag"
Very appropriate, Michael!
I imagine that the original poster sees himself rather more like this...
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