ELCAN replica lens posts

[rfaspen]

Rendering of a decentered 4 element 1970s replica lens..
Guys I would love the rep ELCAN to be a great thing, but something tells me otherwise. Come on LLL tie in with decent distributors who offer warranty.

It seems you're hitting the real issue squarely here:

I was 2 breaths away from joining the initial 8 elements offering. I don't know if I'm happy about it or not, but I am at peace.

Since those early days when lenses were finally trickling into reality, I could see this was very different than a "standard" approach to offering lenses in the wider marketplace. It felt very "back channel" and "friend of a friend" -- you had to be "in the loop" and know someone to even find a lens for sale. And clearly, no warranty and no support. Even now, if you want an 8 element replica you have to track down "eBay-like" sellers in Hong Kong. (Leaving aside all the concern about replica performance, QC, pricing, and so on.)

Many of us (at least myself) would probably feel better about these replica lenses if they were offered in a more "standard" manner. Like you said above, use real distributors and offer real support or at least real contact info to an entity that can address potential issues. The 7-Artisans people (another Chinese newcomer) knew this even in their early days, and I would feel perfectly comfortable buying one of their lenses (and I can reliably find them for sale too). I know these replica lenses supposedly started as a "labor of love" project (or so we're told) but come on, they're now playing in the real marketplace and producing for profit.

So you nailed it kram: "Come on LLL tie in with decent distributors who offer warranty."

 

[Platinum RF]

1700 cad works out as £973. VM 50mm f2 APO sells for £1070. It is a tough choice to make, I will sit down and think about it...

This is not a tough choice, buy a fake Rolex or a decent Seiko

 

[kram]

I was saying it sarcastically. A fake rollex from people with an unknown track record of making watches...

 

[Emile de Leon]

Chinese are making very good fake Rolex now..
They copied it verbatim..
Even experts have trouble confirming the real thing from the fake.
Esp the internal parts.
Even that famous guitarist and watch collector (I forget his name)..got snookered to the tune of hundreds of thousands of $$ on vintage stuff..
..as in...real Rolex vintage bodies..stuffed with fake Chinese gears and parts..

 

[rfaspen]

"Chinese" does not necessarily equal "cheap".

The correlation has been around for a while because the folks in China learned that they can mass produce items of less than perfect quality and sell to the world for great profit. I don't blame those guys one bit for pursuing this.

However, there's plenty of skill and capbility in China and there are some really nice things being made in China. Really high quality. Things that buck the long-held assumption stated above. They just don't find their way to me very often.

 

[f.hayek]

"Chinese" does not necessarily equal "cheap".

The correlation has been around for a while because the folks in China learned that they can mass produce items of less than perfect quality and sell to the world for great profit. I don't blame those guys one bit for pursuing this.

However, there's plenty of skill and capbility in China and there are some really nice things being made in China. Really high quality. Things that buck the long-held assumption stated above. They just don't find their way to me very often.

Ask the countries who opted for Sinopharm vaccines.
“Made in China” has unfortunately become synonymous with cutting corners, patent piracy and not honestly representing the full truth. Not to be confused with “Made in Taiwan” which carries the high-regard for quality and veracity.

 

[Emile de Leon]

I remember when "Made in Japan" meant it was cheap quality..
Then they/Japan proceeded to devastate the US car industry in the 1970's..
It surprised me when a musician friend of mine sold his 1967 Strat...for a ton of cash..

He had a Chinese modern Strat replacement..
That 67 Fender Strat was on gigs for decades..that was his guitar..his baby..he played the hell out of it and I was in the drum chair on the road enjoying every min of it..thought I was gonna do that forever..
Anyway..

I asked him why he sold it..he said..the Chinese copy not only was easier to tune and maintain..but played, sounded, and felt better too...esp the neck..

His vintage Strat sold quickly..got snapped up in a flash..

He said..I hope the guy that bought it..is happy..

 

[f.hayek]

I remember when "Made in Japan" meant it was cheap quality..
Then they/Japan proceeded to devastate the US car industry in the 1970's..
It surprised me when a musician friend of mine sold his 1967 Strat...for a ton of cash..

He had a Chinese modern Strat replacement..
That 67 Fender Strat was on gigs for decades..that was his guitar..his baby..he played the hell out of it and I was in the drum chair on the road enjoying every min of it..thought I was gonna do that forever..
Anyway..

I asked him why he sold it..he said..the Chinese copy not only was easier to tune and maintain..but played, sounded, and felt better too...esp the neck..

His vintage Strat sold quickly..got snapped up in a flash..

He said..I hope the guy that bought it..is happy..

Which goes to the issue you raised about knock-off culture. They're reasonably replicating things from 50 years back and debasing the originality of the creators.

This is pernicious rot we ought not be encouraging, no matter how entertaining it is to have a cheap replica.

 

[Deleted member 65559]

Which goes to the issue you raised about knock-off culture. They're reasonably replicating things from 50 years back and debasing the originality of the creators.

This is pernicious rot we ought not be encouraging, no matter how entertaining it is to have a cheap replica.

FH..... The Fender Guitar Corporation(USA) has factories in Mexico, Indonesia, Korea, & China... These are instruments made for the mother ship....knock-offs under license if you will, which give Fender (like Martin) a wide range of price points...from budget to single luthier custom shop. A very different deal than LLL.

 

[Coldkennels]

In my industry, the issue with Chinese products is nothing to do with the Chinese... it's the Americans.

Chinese factories manufacture to a price. That's important to understand. If you want a quality product, they'll make it. If you want as much profit as possible, they'll cut all the corners they can for you.

I used to work for a couple of American skate/surf companies with a long heritage. I watched over and over again as top-quality products got absolutely gutted and turned into garbage as the bosses in LA pushed for more and more profit.

Hell, I got put in charge of a brand relaunch for a vintage skateboard company, and drew up some great designs for high-end longboards. They'd given me the instruction to make this a "premium brand", and I worked hand in hand with two guys in China to make that happen. They even flew out to our UK HQ in London and we sat around a table for a day, talking about all the finer details. The first prototypes were gorgeous - really nice wood, good attention to detail.

Then the whole project got scrapped as it wouldn't have made enough money for the bosses in LA.

Issues of copyright and patent infringement (and residual McCarthyism) aside, Chinese factories are genuinely able to produce some of the best product in the world. But if you (or the brand owner) buys cheap, you will get cheap. And that isn't China's fault.

 

[Peter Jennings]

Excellent points, Coldkennels. Thanks for the anecdote.

 

[f.hayek]

All fascinating examples but Fender guitars and skate/surfboards made to spec for an overseas contract isn't what I was writing about. As mentioned above by a poster, LLL and the like, are totally different cases.

Secondly, how intellectual property theft is "McCarthyism" is a bit baffling.

I know a few people (mainly in fashion) whose job for their employer was to supervise the factories that churn out the items made under contract. What some would tell me was that the same factories would then turn out 'authentic knockoffs' once their contract ended, and sell them as real on their own.

As a foreigner, you can't ever own the factory outright but are obliged to 'partner' with a local enterprise and are frequently compelled to turn over to them some relevant technology they either don't have or don't want to pay for; all part of the 'bargain'. This, along with the reverse-engineer culture is what pernicious rot is.

 

[Coldkennels]

how intellectual property theft is "McCarthyism" is a bit baffling.

These are two totally separate issues. I've seen factories churn out duplicates, copies or derivatives using supposedly proprietary moulds, too. It happens. But it also happens in the US. I've personally been the victim of it at a woodshop I work with in Georgia. It sucks, but it's the nature of the beast.

What I was referring to is that China is increasingly becoming a misunderstood bogeyman due to the anti-Communist rhetoric and propaganda that's been endemic in the US since the 50s. The same thing happened with the Soviet camera industry - you can see it all across this board, for god's sake.

Whether it's the gross oversimplification of all Soviet products being "Russian" (when... you know... the Kiev was made in the capital city of Ukraine, hence the name), or the idea that the Soviets could only make inferior products (when a lot of it was intended to be entry-level/cheap/attainable, was mutilated after the fact by people who didn't care as much about it as a German or Japanese equivalent, or was heavily misunderstood, like the LTM incompatibility), Soviet products got a lot of stick for political reasons, not practical/logical ones. And the same is happening to China now.

 

[Deleted member 65559]

FHayek, While i don't disagree with you philosophically, isn't is possible that this an outgrowth (i won't use the word 'natural') of companies taking their products "offshore"...in order to profit from lower production costs? One of the big downsides of 'globalization.'

 

[f.hayek]

FHayek, While i don't disagree with you philosophically, isn't is possible that this an outgrowth (i won't use the word 'natural') of companies taking their products "offshore"...in order to profit from lower production costs? One of the big downsides of 'globalization.'

Absolutely correct. But as Lenin once famously said, "capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them".
But the other side of the equation has been a deliberate strategy of the PRC to chronically undervalue their currency rather than allowing it to float. Their industrial policy is aimed at dominating areas not by excellence but by manipulation; the fact that no overseas concern can own a factory outright but only with a local 'partner' and often must turn over critical technology to this partner without recompense is telling. Globalization presumes all players are committed to free-trade, and has given China a pass. Cornering the supply of rare earth metals is one example of their industrial policy, made apparent by the transition to electric cars. Another, made obvious by Covid is the near-monopoly on critical ingredients for pharmaceuticals.

What I was referring to is that China is increasingly becoming a misunderstood bogeyman due to the anti-Communist rhetoric and propaganda that's been endemic in the US since the 50s. The same thing happened with the Soviet camera industry - you can see it all across this board, for god's sake.

The PRC ceased being a communist state long ago. It is a corporatist totalitarian polity where 'Communism' is no longer relevant. Their intention to leapfrog others by hook and crook takes many forms beyond theft of intellectual property. One telling action is claiming the critical sea lanes in the South China Sea far outside their territorial waters and planting artificial islands with military bases and airstrips to intimidate the neighbors they've encroached upon. The now-regular naval patrols by the US, Japanese and Australian navies through these sea lanes may be the last bulwark preventing China from impeding foreign flagged vessels through that part of the world.

These are indisputable facts, not the false analogy of McCarthyism.

 

[rfaspen]

This is exactly my experience. Chilling.

In my industry, the issue with Chinese products is nothing to do with the Chinese... it's the Americans.

Chinese factories manufacture to a price. That's important to understand. If you want a quality product, they'll make it. If you want as much profit as possible, they'll cut all the corners they can for you.

I used to work for a couple of American skate/surf companies with a long heritage. I watched over and over again as top-quality products got absolutely gutted and turned into garbage as the bosses in LA pushed for more and more profit.

Hell, I got put in charge of a brand relaunch for a vintage skateboard company, and drew up some great designs for high-end longboards. They'd given me the instruction to make this a "premium brand", and I worked hand in hand with two guys in China to make that happen. They even flew out to our UK HQ in London and we sat around a table for a day, talking about all the finer details. The first prototypes were gorgeous - really nice wood, good attention to detail.

Then the whole project got scrapped as it wouldn't have made enough money for the bosses in LA.

Issues of copyright and patent infringement (and residual McCarthyism) aside, Chinese factories are genuinely able to produce some of the best product in the world. But if you (or the brand owner) buys cheap, you will get cheap. And that isn't China's fault.

 

[Deleted member 65559]

Absolutely correct
far outside their territorial waters and planting artificial islands with military bases and airstrips to intimidate the neighbors they've encroached upon.

These are indisputable facts, not the false analogy of McCarthyism.

Hmm, who else does that sound like? (Map of American military bases)

https://www.google.com/search?q=map...96#imgrc=FN4gK4-REYKr5M&imgdii=UnkR4Vp3-5LjfM

 

[rfaspen]

All very good points that I have been aware of. I shouldn't overlook context.... I was making point that Chinese are perfectly capable and willing to make very high quality items. But there may be some negatives that shouldn't be ignored. The Chinese are clearly not using the same rulebook as the rest of us. I also remind myself that there are Chinese folks of every stripe and bent that shouldn't be conflated with the govt-industrial machine. Like one of my econ professors used to say, "it's complicated."

Absolutely correct. But as Lenin once famously said, "capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them".
But the other side of the equation has been a deliberate strategy of the PRC to chronically undervalue their currency rather than allowing it to float. Their industrial policy is aimed at dominating areas not by excellence but by manipulation; the fact that no overseas concern can own a factory outright but only with a local 'partner' and often must turn over critical technology to this partner without recompense is telling. Globalization presumes all players are committed to free-trade, and has given China a pass. Cornering the supply of rare earth metals is one example of their industrial policy, made apparent by the transition to electric cars. Another, made obvious by Covid is the near-monopoly on critical ingredients for pharmaceuticals.



The PRC ceased being a communist state long ago. It is a corporatist totalitarian polity where 'Communism' is no longer relevant. Their intention to leapfrog others by hook and crook takes many forms beyond theft of intellectual property. One telling action is claiming the critical sea lanes in the South China Sea far outside their territorial waters and planting artificial islands with military bases and airstrips to intimidate the neighbors they've encroached upon.

These are indisputable facts, not the false analogy of McCarthyism.

 

[f.hayek]

Hmm, who else does that sound like? (Map of American military bases)

https://www.google.com/search?q=map...96#imgrc=FN4gK4-REYKr5M&imgdii=UnkR4Vp3-5LjfM

Drawing a moral equivalence between China creating artificial outposts, uninvited, on other's acknowledged territory and US bases that were established over the course of a century as a result of World War or military alliances is not the same. I'm certain you will bring up Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; the lease was entered into by an earlier Cuban government and the terms by which that lease can be ended required mutual assent.
In contrast, the US installations at Subic Bay and Clark Airfield in the Philippines were closed at the request of the host nation because they had a contractual right to unilaterally close them. The same occured for Libya, Panama and other far-flung outposts over the past 80 years.

I doubt China (PRC) would extend such terms and if they did, actually abide by them.

 

[Ed Schwartzreic]

Just a brief note to say the today I received the ELCAN 50/2 prototype from Kevin, after a long wait due to various issues. More to come when I am able to test it out.

Ed