Olsen
Well-known
Please stay focused on the topic, if you would, and refrain from political, economic, or personal comments that raise tempers. Thanks for your cooperation...
Also, FWIW, it seems to me pointless to speculate about profit/loss within a private company.
Further, FWIW, the Mercedes Benz relevance to Leica is questionable since M-B have a plant in Alabama for at least assembly, perhaps some manufacture... and possibly source some components from other US/Mexican/Canadian companies.
Doug,
I find this discussion 'very interesting', 'very informative' because it is 'political'. So, please don't stop it!
I don't believe a word of what Wall Street Journal writes about 'how things are in America'. And their dedicated political/eonomical discussion forums are 'pure fascism'. Just frightening. When Americans and Europeans here expresses their political opinions and describe the situation they live in, it sounds 'real' to me. And it is opinions of photographers, because we have photography in common. Not just any photography, but RF photography, an obscure and small segment of the photography field.
I am not interested in the opinions of those frequenting WSJ or Forbes. They are too predictable, and unreliable. The political opinion expressed here are unique! Because it is the opinions of fellow RFF photographers.
Be aware of that it is forces among us that don't want political discussions among ordinary people. All too often our political scene is dominated by politicians 'telling us something'. They want the masses to be ignorant and easy to manipulate. We are only supposed to listen to politics. Not express our own views. Therefore, I am very sceptical to anyone trying to curb any freedom of political expression.
I will strongly advice RFF to keep an open mind to any political discussions. Even if the relation to our photography is ever so faint. It is of great value to each and everyone of us. Those who don't think so have the freedom to refrain from participating. I have nothing against that such discussions here are moved to the 'Off Topic' forum, though.
I take for granted that the discussions here are kept civilised and that each and everyone respects the other, even though they don't share political views.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Olsen,
I could not agree more. An enormous value of political discussions on RFF is that were are NOT united by our politics, but by a love of photography in general and rangefinders in general. This is why I find it so odd when people say, 'go to a political forum if you want to discuss politics'. This means 'Either shut up and stop thinking, or go and argue wth people wo are already defined by their political views and who are therefore totally predictible.'
Those who cannot handle a range of political viewpoints strike me as dangerous people.
Cheers,
R.
I could not agree more. An enormous value of political discussions on RFF is that were are NOT united by our politics, but by a love of photography in general and rangefinders in general. This is why I find it so odd when people say, 'go to a political forum if you want to discuss politics'. This means 'Either shut up and stop thinking, or go and argue wth people wo are already defined by their political views and who are therefore totally predictible.'
Those who cannot handle a range of political viewpoints strike me as dangerous people.
Cheers,
R.
gdi
Veteran
Roger, there are a lot of people on the forum who feel that this is not the place for such topics. This doesn't mean they cannot handle a range of political views or that they are dangerous.
These topics inevitably deteriorate into the type of name calling evident in Olsen's post above - now seconded by yours. Surely the intent of the new moderation scheme and earlier thread hashing it out was clear - heated political discussion is not appropriate.
These topics inevitably deteriorate into the type of name calling evident in Olsen's post above - now seconded by yours. Surely the intent of the new moderation scheme and earlier thread hashing it out was clear - heated political discussion is not appropriate.
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
Uh! Oh! Here we go - deported to "Off Topic" again. Oh well. (Sigh).
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Highlighted portion: very true.
But there are also a lot of people who do feel that it is the ideal place for political discussion, precisely because we can be exposed to the widest possible range of political debate, for the reasons I gave in my earlier post.
Name calling? Well, my opinion of the WSJ isn't as low as Olsen's (Forbes may be another matter) but I do not see the 'inevitable deterioration into name calling' that you do.
The whole thing surely turns on your word 'heated'. There are those who see anything but the most anodyne comments as 'heated' and those who are robust to the point of rude. Both Olsen and I are interested in the views of a wide range of people, even if those views are 'political', and it does sometimes seem that there are those whose definition of 'political' includes 'any viewpoint with which I disagree'.
It has just occurred to me that there are parallels here with what I regard as 'over-featured' cameras. A common argunent is that because I can set both aperture and shutter speed manually, all the stuff I see as 'unnecessary' is irrelevant and I should be able to ignore it. Well, I do, by the simple expedient of avoiding cameras that I regard as being festooned with too many bells and whistles. Is it too much to ask that the same courtesy be extended to those who find politics an essential part of economics (including camera sales)? That they just ignore the threads they dislike?
Cheers,
R.
Ben Z
Veteran
1) M-B's US plant assembles only the R-Class and ML Class (and maybe the GLK too, I'm not sure) which are specifically targeted at the US market. S, E, and C class are still manufactured in Europe, and prices in the US have not risen more than about 1% in the last eight years despite the fact all three models have been totally redesigned.
2)Leica sources at least two major components of the M8/M9 from non-EU countries: Japan (Seiko/Copal) for the shutter and USA (Kodak) for the sensor.
I hope that clears up the questionableness you saw in the relevance.
Olsen
Well-known
Here in Norway Canon lenses have become som 40% cheaper in 8 years. So, any price increase must be currency related.
Olsen
Well-known
dave lackey
Veteran
Well, MB in Vance, Alabama builds the ML, GL and R-class vehicles now with the C-class slated to be built there in the near future.
gdi
Veteran
I guess it works both ways Olsen, if you don't like me calling out your bad behavior and "Fascist baiting", then just ignore it and don't reply. Don't try to suppress my opinion or dictate my behavior.
This has drifted well off of the original topic, and into the flame-war territory.
RFF is a photography forum, not a political forum.
RFF is a photography forum, not a political forum.
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