Fast Speed Adjustment on Leica III

[SimonKlanfurt]

Hello Folks,

I'am tinkering on a Leica III and the fast shutter speeds are a little too slow (500 is 246 and 200 is 126). The slower speeds work fine. It's the first time I encounter this type of shutter and the last Leica IIIf I fixed had eccentric screws to adjust the fast shutter speeds but I can't find any on this one. I already adjusted the tension.
Does anybody knows a procedure to make 1/500 and 1/200 faster?

Thanks and Greetings
Simon

 

[Erik van Straten]

The shutters of the earliest Leicas run very slow, they use 1/20 of a second to run from left to right. The 1/200 s and 1/500 s on the speed dial are wishful thinking. If you get the shutter to run faster, you'll run into another problem: tapering, so the exposure of the frame will be uneven (a difference of exposure between the left and right of the frame).

You must be very happy with a fine 1/100 speed and with an even exposure of the whole frame.

Remember, the speed of the films is nowadays much higher than in the 1930's.

Erik.

 

[SimonKlanfurt]

The shutters of the earliest Leicas run very slow, they use 1/20 of a second to run from left to right. The 1/200 s and 1/500 s on the speed dial are wishful thinking. If you get the shutter to run faster, you'll run into another problem: tapering, so the exposure of the frame will be uneven (a difference of exposure between the left and right of the frame).

You must be very happy with a fine 1/100 speed and with an even exposure of the whole frame.

Remember, the speed of the films is nowadays much higher than in the 1930's.

Erik.

Hi Erik,
I get your point, but the IIIf (which is not substantially younger) has some sort of adjustability and in my experience it is often possible to tweak the speeds by either bending or filing something off the shutter.
Greetings
Simon

 

[Erik van Straten]

No, from the IIIc onwards the shutters run faster, 1/30 sec from right to left (synch time). This is a big improvement. The M Leica and the IIIg have a synch time of 1/50 sec.

Erik.

 

[SimonKlanfurt]

Just for documentation: I ended up increasing the shutter tension by a few stops on both the first and the second curtain. This gave me almost 1/500 without sacrificing on the slow speeds.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Just for documentation: I ended up increasing the shutter tension by a few stops on both the first and the second curtain. This gave me almost 1/500 without sacrificing on the slow speeds.

Great! Did you check for tapering?

Erik.

 

[davidnewtonguitars]

I think the symptoms and solution points to the need for a genuine CLA.
My experience with a well cleaned & lubricated camera is lower tension runs the shutter at the same speed, and quieter, as one that is tensioned higher.

 

[Erik van Straten]

I think the symptoms and solution points to the need for a genuine CLA.
My experience with a well cleaned & lubricated camera is lower tension runs the shutter at the same speed, and quieter, as one that is tensioned higher.

Yes, that is absolutely true, the tension has to be set als low as possible, the shutter "just" has to snap. The tensioning is then also much smoother, but the mechanism must then be clean, so yes, CLA. But don't get any oil on the straps and the curtains.

Erik.

 

[jcb4718]

From the discussion above, would it be correct to say that there have been three generations of shutter with sync speeds of 1/20, 1/30 and 1/50th sec? As well as being higher spec. would it also be true to say the later shutters have better performance e.g. actually achieve their highest shutter speeds and maintain them over longer periods (i.e. before needing servicing)?

 

[Erik van Straten]

Yes and no. Indeed there are three generations of shutters with different X-synch speeds: Leica I, II, III, IIIa and IIIb have 1/20 of a second, IIIc, IIId and IIIf have 1/30 of a second and IIIg has 1/50 of a second.

About servicing: These cameras are all very old. It is always good to have them checked by a competent repairman. However, the older Leicas are not as delicate as the newer ones. A Leica I or II is much easier to repair than a IIIg.

Erik.

 

[jcb4718]

Thank you Erik. So when you say 'The 1/200 s and 1/500 s on the speed dial are wishful thinking.' do you mean 'unless the camera has been serviced by a competent repairman'? Also, I think the IIIf RED DIAL has a shutter similar to the IIIg. Is that correct?

 

[Erik van Straten]

I know that on the older Leicas, model I, II, III, IIIa and IIIb under ideal circumstances (like correct temperature and fresh lube) the 1/200, 1/500 and 1/1000 can be precise, but you have to see these "speeds" as too small slits between the curtains to work really good. The movement of the shutter is too slow for these speeds. Therefore Leitz designed the IIIc with a faster moving shutter.
AFAIK the "red dial" is the same as the "black dial", but with a more modern speed range.
The IIIg has a synch contact for electronic flash at 1/50 sec.

It is a fact that the M-shutter never realizes the 1/1000 speed, usually this is 1/750.

Erik.

 

[xayraa33]

Thank you Erik. So when you say 'The 1/200 s and 1/500 s on the speed dial are wishful thinking.' do you mean 'unless the camera has been serviced by a competent repairman'? Also, I think the IIIf RED DIAL has a shutter similar to the IIIg. Is that correct?

Yes, the RD lllf had the 1/50 of a sec shutter curtain running time as the IIIg but had those unique shutter speed divisions at the medium shutter speeds.

 

[jcb4718]

Thank you Eric and XAYRAA33. So it seems to me that the earlier screwmount Leicas (I to IIIb) were robustly built (sturdy components, lots of screws) but with a relatively simple design operating at its limit. The IIIc and subsequent Leicas meet the design requirements better but with less 'heavy engineering' (e.g. lighter components, less screws). On that basis, the engineering being 'good enough' I would conclude the IIIc and later cameras are the better 'user' cameras.

 

[xayraa33]

"I would conclude the IIIc and later cameras are the better 'user' cameras."

Being the owner of Leica III ,IIIc and lllf BD and RD models ( got rid of my lllg in 1980)

I would say the "better" user camera moniker should be applied to the individual camera at hand regardless of the model designation. These are old cameras now and many of them, unless well serviced, can be problematic.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Yes, I agree with xayraa33, the individual condition of the camera is more important than the type of the camera here. One of my best is a Leica I with serial number 52783 with a fixed Elmar, 1930.

Erik.

 

[davidnewtonguitars]

Thanks Erik. I was considering selling the '38 Leica Standard because I'm mainly using the M2.
I guess I'll reconsider it as a post-apocalyptic "sure thing".

 

[jcb4718]

Interesting. How do you know you have a good Leica if it can be any of the models? I mean is it some long process (e.g. the time between services) or can you tell e.g. by the sound of the shutter?

 

[David Hughes]

Hi,

How they were built doesn't really come into it after all those years, perhaps as many as 90 years or more. What's important is how much use it has had combined with how much it has been looked after; meaning repaired, serviced and so on...

They can look immaculate and be rusty inside and the opposite.

Regards, David

 

[jcb4718]

Yes, agreed David. Of course condition must be a major factor after all these years. I guess what interested me was the way the camera developed. From the comments made it seems that the sync speed was increased (1/20 to 1/30 to 1/50) to improve the reliability of the higher speeds. This allowed the range of speeds to be increased while making the camera more complicated. At the same time the construction was simplified. I'm inclined to think that overall the later cameras when manufactured were an improvement over the earlier cameras. This does not always happen. Cost reduction and design streamlining can be taken too far. My wife has a Singer sewing machine from the 1960's that is all metal with hardened gears etc. etc. It will last forever! Later machines made extensive use of plastics and the older all metal machines simply could not compete on cost...even so, they are better machines.