Ferrania P30 B&W Film Thread

[Mackinaw]

How long has it been since its last online availability?

In the U.S., probably more than a month. They don't expect to coat more film until the local government finishes with repairs/upgrades to their factory.

Jim B.

 

[lynnb]

Manly beach, Sydney.
Ferrania P30 @iso100 in XTOL 1+1

 

[lynnb]

Accidentally exposed at ISO400 using sunny 11 but developed for ISO100 in XTOL 1+1. Y filter.

Manly beach, Sydney, summer 2018

 

[Mackinaw]

I shot this on Sunday. Canon IVSB2, Canon 35/2.8 lens. Processed in straight D-76, continuous agitation for 6'30" at 22C.

Jim B.

 

[martinjames]

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I received my 5 rolls of P30 quite some time ago but just recently ran my first roll. This was taken using my 1930s uncoated Hektor 135 (without the UV filter that's usually on it) so the contrast is somewhat subdued to begin with. Leica IIIb. Ilfosol 3, 6 min.

 

[martinjames]

BTW, today is the first time I've uploaded an image to the Gallery here at RFF, so as to copy image address, then insert it into a post. In the Gallery this image is able to be viewed larger. How does one get a larger image into the post? (original jpeg is 1000px wide). Thanks!

Update: image fixed

 

[css9450]

In my Voigtlander Vito I (original, pre-WWII version).

 

[Mackinaw]

Leica MP with 75mm Summilux. F1.6 at 1/250. D-76 straight.

Jim B.

 

[css9450]

At an abandoned factory. Voigtlander Vito I, Ferrania P30, Rodinal 1:50

 

[css9450]

 

[Argentia1]

I've been one of the few lucky guys who had the chance to buy quite a lot of Film Ferrania P30. I did a lot of detailed testing including sensitometric tests with a densitometer and evaluating the characteristic curves of several developer combinations with P30.
Unfortunately all the results have not been satisfying. Because
- P30 is not an ASA 80 film, the speed is significantly lower, even in developers which offer very good sensivity/speed
- depending on the developer type you get quite problematic characteristic curves / tonality
- the gradation is very steep, you get very high contrast
- depending on the developer you have to sacrifice either shadow detail or highlight detail: it is impossible to get a normal linear characteristic curve with smooth tonality and good detail both in the shadows and highlights. Either the shadows are empty, or the highligths are blown out.

Film Ferrania said this has been an "alpha" version. A test emulsion. My test results show that this is true.
There is still a lot to do for FF to design a film which can compete with the established manufacturers on the market. At Photokina this September there has been information that FF is indeed currently working on re-formulating this film. That will probably take some time. And from my test results it is absolutely necessary.

 

[Larry Cloetta]

And yet, some manage to make beautiful photographs with P30.
I wonder if some critics walked out of the initial screening of “La Dolce Vita” because the curves were problematic, and not just the ones on Anita Ekberg.

 

[ptpdprinter]

At Photokina this September there has been information that FF is indeed currently working on re-formulating this film. That will probably take some time. And from my test results it is absolutely necessary.

You would think that if they don't have the time, personnel, and resources to do the basic sensitometry for a proper ISO test, that reformulating an emulsion is going to be problematic in the near term. I think at this point they are still trying to get production of the existing P30 formulation back on line now that they actually have electricity at their facility.

 

[jawarden]

I've been one of the few lucky guys who had the chance to buy quite a lot of Film Ferrania P30. I did a lot of detailed testing including sensitometric tests with a densitometer and evaluating the characteristic curves of several developer combinations with P30.
Unfortunately all the results have not been satisfying. Because
- P30 is not an ASA 80 film, the speed is significantly lower, even in developers which offer very good sensivity/speed
- depending on the developer type you get quite problematic characteristic curves / tonality
- the gradation is very steep, you get very high contrast
- depending on the developer you have to sacrifice either shadow detail or highlight detail: it is impossible to get a normal linear characteristic curve with smooth tonality and good detail both in the shadows and highlights. Either the shadows are empty, or the highligths are blown out.

Film Ferrania said this has been an "alpha" version. A test emulsion. My test results show that this is true.
There is still a lot to do for FF to design a film which can compete with the established manufacturers on the market. At Photokina this September there has been information that FF is indeed currently working on re-formulating this film. That will probably take some time. And from my test results it is absolutely necessary.

I've found that using the right developer and exposing this film properly yields results that I like and can print in the darkroom to my satisfaction. No problems.

 

[Argentia1]

And yet, some manage to make beautiful photographs with P30.

I've looked at almost all P30 pictures published so far (e.g. on the Film Ferrania facebook and instagram pages).
The better or acceptable pictures (from a technical point of view) were those where the object contrast was relatively low. That helps a lot when you have a film with the sensitometric problems I've described.
In higher contrast scenes either the shadows were empty with little or no detail, or the highlights were burnt with no detail.

You cannot fool physics: If you measure a film with a densitometer and make the characteristic curve you have all the relevant data and know how a film is working.
You know how the real effective speed / ISO sensivity is.
You know how contrast, tonality, shadow and highlight details are.

I've also discussed my test results with other photographers who have tested P30. And they have got the same results.
I hope FF can improve the film. I appreciate their hard work and fights for the revival of the FF factory on a smaller scale.

 

[Argentia1]

You would think that if they don't have the time, personnel, and resources to do the basic sensitometry for a proper ISO test, that reformulating an emulsion is going to be problematic in the near term. I think at this point they are still trying to get production of the existing P30 formulation back on line now that they actually have electricity at their facility.

Possible.
At least from their published information, their factory building (the LRF, the former R&D center with the small pilot coating machine) is now completely finished and in operation. The team is at their working places again.
We will see whether they now focus on solving the problems with the emulsion first, and then go back to production. Or if they first will make another batch of the Alpha version trying to get cash in.

 

[Larry Cloetta]

I've been one of the few lucky guys who had the chance to buy quite a lot of Film Ferrania P30. I did a lot of detailed testing including sensitometric tests with a densitometer and evaluating the characteristic curves of several developer combinations with P30.
Unfortunately all the results have not been satisfying. Because
- P30 is not an ASA 80 film, the speed is significantly lower, even in developers which offer very good sensivity/speed
- depending on the developer type you get quite problematic characteristic curves / tonality
- the gradation is very steep, you get very high contrast
- depending on the developer you have to sacrifice either shadow detail or highlight detail: it is impossible to get a normal linear characteristic curve with smooth tonality and good detail both in the shadows and highlights. Either the shadows are empty, or the highligths are blown out.
.

If you have performed densitometer tests with a step tablet, and created graphs of the resulting curves for a variety of developers, it would be of interest to see those, as long as each graph was annotated with the information as to the developer used, developing time, developer temperature, and exact agitation method used which resulted in that particular curve.

I've looked at almost all P30 pictures published so far ......
The better or acceptable pictures (from a technical point of view) were those where the object contrast was relatively low. That helps a lot when you have a film with the sensitometric problems I've described.
In higher contrast scenes either the shadows were empty with little or no detail, or the highlights were burnt with no detail.

You cannot fool physics:.....

I don’t think anyone is trying to fool physics, which would prove daunting in any event. P30 seems to be, as you note, a high contrast film without as much exposure latitude as something like Tri-X, susceptible to blown out highlights or dense shadows if used in high contrast situations, and thus better used in lower contrast situations. Similar to transparency films, in other words. It seems to have other meaningful characteristics as a film which are appealing, if exposed and processed correctly, which make it desirable from an esthetic standpoint, whether someone judges it’s curve to be “problematic” or not.

Looking at the same P30 pictures published so far, my I opinion is that some of them are not only acceptable, they are outstanding, a cut above what I might routinely see with some other films. That’s a personal esthetic judgment, esthetics being a club where physics is not a voting member.

The question is how to best achieve those results, for those to whom those results are important. That’s where your densitometry results could be valuable to everyone. Not the conclusions, but the results. I am not convinced, personally, that P30 needs to be improved, but it does need to be understood. Access to the raw densitometric graphs, correlated with the developers and methods which were used to produce those graphs, would help others draw their own conclusions as to how to use the film to best achieve the excellent results which are obviously possible, and what the film’s ideal operating window is. As much work as you have gone to to map out the curves, it would be extremely helpful if others could see those, if that would be possible.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Godfrey]

So just like with all photographic materials from the beginning, the current P30 has its limitations. Photographers have to come to grips with those, exploit the advantages, and work around the deficiencies. The manufacturer has to work on improving their product, correcting the deficiencies, and reducing the limitations.
Between the specifications and measurements, deficiencies and workarounds, is the realm of art and mastery. Perfection is not only impossible, it is undefined.

Nothing has changed. 😀

G
—
"No matter where you go, there you are."

 

[Larry Cloetta]

So just like with all photographic materials from the beginning, the current P30 has its limitations. Photographers have to come to grips with those, exploit the advantages, and work around the deficiencies. The manufacturer has to work on improving their product, correcting the deficiencies, and reducing the limitations.
Between the specifications and measurements, deficiencies and workarounds, is the realm of art and mastery. Perfection is not only impossible, it is undefined.

Nothing has changed. 😀

G
—
"No matter where you go, there you are."

Indeed....

 

[Mackinaw]

This is a remarkable film that does have a learning curve. I shoot it at E.I. of 50 and develop in D-76 with agitation, time and temps and recommended in their “best practices” PDF. Like many B&W films, it is contrasty in direct sunlight, less so in shade. For my portrait work, I always place the subject in the shade, or shoot on a cloudy day. Using vintage glass, known for being low in contrast, helps too. And this may be a film that is best scanned, not printed in a darkroom. I find that I can tease a lot of detail out off the shadows in PS.

I don’t particularly like the attached pic, but it does show that the film can deliver flat images too, under the right conditions. I’m looking forward to Ferrania resuming production (and hopefully, in 120).

Jim B.