f6andBthere
Well-known
That's very cut and dried and possibly somewhat simplistic ... but also totally accurate.
Jamie123
Veteran
I don't think many nutritionists would say that you should base your diet on meat, milk, cheese, butter and eggs. It's obvious that that is not healthy. But Vegans, if I understand correctly, avoid anything that has even a drip of e.g. milk in it, which is what I don't think can be justified medically. That's like treating animal products as a kind of poison that cannot under any circumstances enter the body. Hence my point about the purity fetish.
As for the ethical/environmental aspect regarding the treating of animals as commoditiy, I fully understand that and wouldn't want to argue there,.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
for accuracy's sake, the equivalent would be "you shoot a cat but don't eat the cat".
marcr1230
Well-known
Have there ever been societies that have easy and ample access to a surfeit of animal products.
Eating just about anything in moderation is probably not going to do you harm. but eating meat 3 times a day and dining at all you can eat buffets, then leading a sedentary life is probably not wise for most people from a health standpoint.
Common sense and growing medical evidence implies that reducing intake of higher fat foods can improve overall health. Vegan or vegetarian styles in a sense , are a more extreme way of shifting your dietary balance.
now back to our thread - film , use it and don't think too hard on it.
Eating just about anything in moderation is probably not going to do you harm. but eating meat 3 times a day and dining at all you can eat buffets, then leading a sedentary life is probably not wise for most people from a health standpoint.
Common sense and growing medical evidence implies that reducing intake of higher fat foods can improve overall health. Vegan or vegetarian styles in a sense , are a more extreme way of shifting your dietary balance.
now back to our thread - film , use it and don't think too hard on it.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
I'm with you there - I have been yelled at for wearing, in -20° cold, a fur cap where the fox has been dead for longer than I'm alive.
Then again, I heard it said once that strict vegans shouldn't use cars or buses because, in fact, those run on dead dinosaurs.
Either way, I think that the merits of any political cause shouldn't really be measured by the yardstick of what depths of stupidity some of their adherents are capable of.
Ultimately this boils down to two decisions.
The first decision is for everyone to make themselves - whether the fact that photography products have animal products in them bothers them enough that they would consider stopping to use them. This kind of decision is really very personal and there is little that a web discussion can add in terms of assistance.
The second question is whether one wants to impose the choices that one makes for oneself on others who may have made a different choice for themselves. And that's where I find a lot of the discussions pro/contra vegetarianism and veganism rather tiresome. This one here has been rather civil so far and I hope it remains that way.
paulfish4570
Veteran
"The earliest records of vegetarianism as a concept and practice amongst a significant number of people concern ancient India[2] and the ancient Greek civilization in southern Italy and in Greece.[3] In both instances the diet was closely connected with the idea of nonviolence toward animals (called ahinsa in India) and was promoted by religious groups and philosophers.[4] Following the Christianization of the Roman Empire in late antiquity, vegetarianism practically disappeared from Europe."
these are not primitive peoples. these are well-socialized cultures.
i'm talking stone age, i reckon ...
these are not primitive peoples. these are well-socialized cultures.
i'm talking stone age, i reckon ...
taskoni
Well-known
Well, whatever works but please note you shooting the film when it's already dead and I didn't say that for the cat...
OK, I am back from the market. I did a tally at the end, and there was definitely more rabbit food than meat in my cart, but I didn't get much of either. More grains today, which I feel compelled to add that this is what cows eat.
paulfish4570
Veteran
i'm really trying to get to the heart of the matter, the motives for the choices people make. seems to me, the OP is trying to make a heart decision, which can only be made by him no matter what the rest of us think about the whole veg/meat thing.
my daughter and her husband were largely organic vegetarians - as much as practically possible - for several years because of the chemicals in mass-raised livestock (and mass-raised vegs). they are eating meat again because they now have sources for free-range beef, and chicken. daughter's father-in-law raises free-range beef. that is one source, very inexpensive. chicken, not so much. a free-range chicken, bought ready for the pot, costs $27.
my daughter and her husband were largely organic vegetarians - as much as practically possible - for several years because of the chemicals in mass-raised livestock (and mass-raised vegs). they are eating meat again because they now have sources for free-range beef, and chicken. daughter's father-in-law raises free-range beef. that is one source, very inexpensive. chicken, not so much. a free-range chicken, bought ready for the pot, costs $27.
noimmunity
scratch my niche
Thnk Again
Thnk Again
I support the OP's original intent, which is plainly to ask people to think about the use of industrialized animal by-products in film production.
Thnk Again
I support the OP's original intent, which is plainly to ask people to think about the use of industrialized animal by-products in film production.
jwc57
Well-known
It is a decision the OP has to make for himself.
I was prompted to visit the PETA site due to this discussion and read what is listed for vegans to avoid. I wasn't surprised by the length of the list, I grew up in the country and hunted until I felt it was unethical. What surprised me were the items they don't want you to use, like honey and insulin.
I was also surprised to find the items listed on a Vegan site that are required to substitute for meat because a completely vegan diet takes out needed nutrients. It seems to me that to be completely vegan requires a modern knowledge of nutrients, their origins, and what to use to substitute. Without that, you are not eating completely healthy.
I was prompted to visit the PETA site due to this discussion and read what is listed for vegans to avoid. I wasn't surprised by the length of the list, I grew up in the country and hunted until I felt it was unethical. What surprised me were the items they don't want you to use, like honey and insulin.
I was also surprised to find the items listed on a Vegan site that are required to substitute for meat because a completely vegan diet takes out needed nutrients. It seems to me that to be completely vegan requires a modern knowledge of nutrients, their origins, and what to use to substitute. Without that, you are not eating completely healthy.
v3cron
Well-known
Those substitutes bug me as well. I don't think they are really necessary, and I've been looking into this a lot recently. I've been eating nothing but fruits, veggies, and nuts for about a month now, and feel better than I ever have before - and it's for that reason, not moral reasons, that I am changing my diet. No (or at least very, very little) tofu, seitan, tempeh, whatever. We have this weird obsession with protein, probably because it is a major part of our economy.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
But no human being killed the dinosaurs. Unless you're a "true believer" and hold that humans and dinosaurs walked together.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Part of the economy now, but the origin of that is the body's need for complete protein; it is a very dense protein source. Meat is a very easy way to get all the amino acids needed for health. So yes, an industry grew up around that, with a very powerful lobby.
Getting complete protein is possible with a vegan or vegetarian diet, it just takes a bit more knowledge and effort.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
In the wild, the majority of animals are eaten alive, usually as babies. Also, nature is incredibly wasteful: I think this every time I find a dead baby bird (pushed out of the nest) in my courtyard. And human dentition and the human digestive tract are clearly omnivore. Arguments about what is 'natural' can safely be dismissed.
Arguments about what is moral are another matter. Deliberately inflicting suffering is not, as far as I am concerned, moral. Nor am I alone: cf recent EU regulations on keeping battery hens. I always check carefully where pork comes from too: there's far too much battery pig-farming in France (mostly in Brittany), and I will not eat beef treated with hormones. Nor will most off the civilized world, which is why you never see cheap, exported US beef. That's NOT an attack on the USA, but on certain powerful lobbying groups who act on behalf of the meat industry.
Buying 'bio' ('certified organic') food is something of an extravagance, that can be afforded only by the well-to-do, and a lot of 'bio' food is a con job. But there are still times when I prefer 'bio' -- mostly on moral grounds. occasionally on health grounds, and, in some cases, because it tastes better.
This is a moral choice. I do not however have a moral problem with most of the food I eat, including meat, though I have a bit more of a problem with fish, which are seldom killed quickly and humanely. The gelatine in film is pretty low on the list of things I feel guilty about. As others have said, there are vast grey areas in most of the things that most of us do. The only people who can tell us what we will put up with, and what we won't, are ourselves.
'Ourselves' should be as well informed as possible, but equally, there's a difference between information and preaching, especially when the preacher uses 'facts' that are not, shall we say, universally accepted even by those who try to keep an open mind.
Cheers,
R.
Arguments about what is moral are another matter. Deliberately inflicting suffering is not, as far as I am concerned, moral. Nor am I alone: cf recent EU regulations on keeping battery hens. I always check carefully where pork comes from too: there's far too much battery pig-farming in France (mostly in Brittany), and I will not eat beef treated with hormones. Nor will most off the civilized world, which is why you never see cheap, exported US beef. That's NOT an attack on the USA, but on certain powerful lobbying groups who act on behalf of the meat industry.
Buying 'bio' ('certified organic') food is something of an extravagance, that can be afforded only by the well-to-do, and a lot of 'bio' food is a con job. But there are still times when I prefer 'bio' -- mostly on moral grounds. occasionally on health grounds, and, in some cases, because it tastes better.
This is a moral choice. I do not however have a moral problem with most of the food I eat, including meat, though I have a bit more of a problem with fish, which are seldom killed quickly and humanely. The gelatine in film is pretty low on the list of things I feel guilty about. As others have said, there are vast grey areas in most of the things that most of us do. The only people who can tell us what we will put up with, and what we won't, are ourselves.
'Ourselves' should be as well informed as possible, but equally, there's a difference between information and preaching, especially when the preacher uses 'facts' that are not, shall we say, universally accepted even by those who try to keep an open mind.
Cheers,
R.
paulfish4570
Veteran
" 'Ourselves' should be as well informed as possible, but equally, there's a difference between information and preaching, especially when the preacher uses 'facts' that are, shall we say, not universally accepted even by those who try to keep an open mind."
well-said, Roger.
well-said, Roger.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Not to mention that world seafood stocks are at dangerous levels. The collapse of the seas' ecosystem is quite possible, perhaps even likely.
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
[/quote]fwiw, I practise vegetarianism on Wednesdays and Fridays...as well as during Lent and Advent and during still other fasting times --- and I find using film to be a joy, being no trouble to my conscience. Like the food I consume, I am thankful for the film which my M consumes I think this sense of gratitude is a key to the joy of consuming something....whether it be film or food.[/quote]
Nicely said, Thomas. Thanks.
I think this sense of gratitude is a key to the joy of consuming something....whether it be film or food.[/quote]Nicely said, Thomas. Thanks.
taskoni
Well-known
What a sick tread. After Chernobyl the Eastern Europe was avoiding vegetables and yet we survived on meat but many vegans swallow the radiation with the vitamins... In the salad bars they were serving salad, fork, knife and geiger counter bon appetit
alfredian
Well-known
Transgenic vat-grown gelatin/collagen
Transgenic vat-grown gelatin/collagen
Harking back to what semordnilap and joosep have said, Gelatin/Collagen is now available via gene-jockying as a transgenic/recombinant product, grown in vats of yeast/bacti, from a made-to-order synthetic gene-sequence. Fujifilm and Philips (Netherlands outfit) hold patents on same.
Yes, Frankenfilm is here. I don't know how much of the transgenic stuff makes its way into products, and I suspect it was done for Quality Control and economy, but it does totally bypass the traditional beef/pork bones or poultry-skin sources.
Then again, now we're exploiting yeast & bacteria to make film components. We may want to contemplate all this while quaffing beer or wine along with some bread and cheese.
Transgenic vat-grown gelatin/collagen
Harking back to what semordnilap and joosep have said, Gelatin/Collagen is now available via gene-jockying as a transgenic/recombinant product, grown in vats of yeast/bacti, from a made-to-order synthetic gene-sequence. Fujifilm and Philips (Netherlands outfit) hold patents on same.
Yes, Frankenfilm is here. I don't know how much of the transgenic stuff makes its way into products, and I suspect it was done for Quality Control and economy, but it does totally bypass the traditional beef/pork bones or poultry-skin sources.
Then again, now we're exploiting yeast & bacteria to make film components. We may want to contemplate all this while quaffing beer or wine along with some bread and cheese.