Matthew Runkel
Well-known
With the reference to self-insuring, I was trying suggest that if the risk of not being able to get it all hand inspected is 10%, you can value that risk at 10% of the cost of the bad consequence, or $800. This only makes sense, of course, if you can come up with $8,000 should the worst occur.
The insurmountable risk seems seems to me to be on the return.
Beemermark
Veteran
Didn't see it mentioned but have you tried TSA Pre-check. You pretty much get waved through and the line is always smaller so the people at the check point are always more friendly and willing to help. Just my experience.
furcafe
Veteran
The reason for KM-25's post is that airports have started to roll out new CT (like a hospital CAT scan) X-ray machines for carry on luggage. These new machines, which hadn't been introduced in 2019, are much more powerful than the older carry on scanners, closer to the high-powered machines used for check-in baggage, so all film, even slow ISO, will be ruined. Look at Freakscene's post above (https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3031886&postcount=7) for some informative links about these new machines. I don't think it's implausible that the same scanners will also eventually be deployed at government buildings, subway stops (as in China), etc.
It would be nice to have an easy way to find out which airports & facilities have these new machines, but I'm guessing people will have to put together a DIY database since the authorities don't want make it too easy to circumvent security by publicizing the data.
Bingley
Veteran
Thanks to the OP for raising this issue and to Marty for the links to Kodak Alaris and Ilford notices. My last trip to Europe (to France) was in 2018, and I took about 20 rolls of TMax 400 and some Portra 160. No problems asking for hand inspection at US airports, but I have previously experienced the same refusal to hand inspect at Heathrow. My unexposed film traveled in handheld luggage w/ me, and I had no problems w/ fogging.
But that appears to have changed w/ the latest generation of CT scanners now being used to scan handheld luggage at security checkpoints. That seems to be the main takeaway from this thread. It’s a recent development, so the practice I and others followed for years may no longer be protective, or will leave you vulnerable to the security checkpoint staff who may or may not be willing to hand inspect film.
In 2011, I did inadvertently pack undeveloped film in a checked bag on a flight from Stockholm to Oslo. I shot a roll or two of the film when I arrived in Oslo and had it processed there. No problems w/ fogging, but then I learned that, at the time, the airlines were not necessarily scanning every single bag, and I have had simply gotten lucky.
My overseas trips in recent years have been hybrid: digital (for color) and film (for bw). I’ll follow these developments, and may elect to use digital only on future trips overseas.
But that appears to have changed w/ the latest generation of CT scanners now being used to scan handheld luggage at security checkpoints. That seems to be the main takeaway from this thread. It’s a recent development, so the practice I and others followed for years may no longer be protective, or will leave you vulnerable to the security checkpoint staff who may or may not be willing to hand inspect film.
In 2011, I did inadvertently pack undeveloped film in a checked bag on a flight from Stockholm to Oslo. I shot a roll or two of the film when I arrived in Oslo and had it processed there. No problems w/ fogging, but then I learned that, at the time, the airlines were not necessarily scanning every single bag, and I have had simply gotten lucky.
My overseas trips in recent years have been hybrid: digital (for color) and film (for bw). I’ll follow these developments, and may elect to use digital only on future trips overseas.
Corran
Well-known
The Atlanta airport has CT scanners now. Multiple trips in the last year I have requested and been given hand-checks, including one trip with well over 40 rolls of film. No issues, in fact there are signs all over saying "please request hand-check if you have film" or something to that effect. Same at other airports across the country, even if they didn't have the CT scanners.
I've had a couple experiences with TSA agents being excited to see someone with film and asking about what cameras I had on me and wanting to see the Century Graphic I had in the case.
Honestly I think calling ahead is going to be fruitless. You're talking to bureaucrats, not the folks on the ground working the machines. They are the ones that you need to be able to talk to, but of course they aren't on the phones. In my opinion, telling someone on the phone you'd like to pay some amount of money to get a special check or something (even if hand-check requests should be no problem) just sounds like some kind of bribe and is more likely to cause suspicion, but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you meant.
I would simply make sure to arrive well ahead of time and ask for a hand-check, and demand to escalate up the chain if they refuse. I also tend to plan my flights around when TSA is less busy.
Anyway, good luck.
I've had a couple experiences with TSA agents being excited to see someone with film and asking about what cameras I had on me and wanting to see the Century Graphic I had in the case.
Honestly I think calling ahead is going to be fruitless. You're talking to bureaucrats, not the folks on the ground working the machines. They are the ones that you need to be able to talk to, but of course they aren't on the phones. In my opinion, telling someone on the phone you'd like to pay some amount of money to get a special check or something (even if hand-check requests should be no problem) just sounds like some kind of bribe and is more likely to cause suspicion, but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you meant.
I would simply make sure to arrive well ahead of time and ask for a hand-check, and demand to escalate up the chain if they refuse. I also tend to plan my flights around when TSA is less busy.
Anyway, good luck.
oldwino
Well-known
But you still have to pass your stuff through the scanner. Its just more "relaxed" when you do.
KM-25
Well-known
This all started from me deciding to attend one with a well known hybrid film / digital photographer. I would do a week with him to help learn the finer points of the place and then have 5-7 more weeks on my own.
In regards to buying new from stateside or even Euro shops, it will cost me a lot more than if I were to ship from my stock here at home. I am just not doing development over there, I need to be out all the time making work. It's a rough place to shoot due to wind so you really need a lot of at bats to produce.
I have been pre-check for a few years now, it makes an enormous difference when I travel for jobs stateside. But I am not sure how many of the benefits translate in overseas airports.
I just want to thank one and all. I think the range of opinions was much needed. And yeah…you can tell I am well worn out.
I also know the catchy headline was a bit of a disruptor. But I do think a raft of good answers and grass roots attention to what is boutique international film logistics, will go a long way in making this a faster and less painful transition to using film abroad.
It’s personal for me on a few levels and I am never one to quit so I have to self educate as best as I can. I’m sure the proper supply line is out there, it’s just a matter of finding the right path and process.
The film industry needs to take an active role in helping us set up some coordination, a system that reads as many real time data points as possible and ties it all together.
The solution is out there, even if added cost needs to be considered.
I'm taking a break from this all for now, have a good rest of the weekend folks!
rulnacco
Well-known
I have had security at Heathrow, within the last few years, decline to hand check film on two occasions, even though I very politely requested it and explained that some of it would be pushed beyond 800 ISO. They flat out refused to do it.
On the other hand, I've never had a TSA agent in the US refuse to do it, and I've had a few pleasant conversations about shooting film while they've done it.
On the other hand, I've never had a TSA agent in the US refuse to do it, and I've had a few pleasant conversations about shooting film while they've done it.
rfaspen
[insert pithy phrase here]
Yes. This has been my experience and the experience of all others I know who have flown in US and also Heathrow...... with but one person who in this thread has stated that they had a hand check at Heathrow. I have no reason to think they are being untruthful, so they were clearly very, very lucky.
In the US, I have had better luck with hand check requests in later years..... presumably due to film revival? But have still had a few refusals over the years. Oh, and I had good luck in Mexico too, but that was some years ago now...
jukka
Established
While I haven't been to Heathrow (with undeveloped film), I've had no problems getting hand-checked virtually everywhere, including Charles de Gaulle.
This is not the time, however, to delve into individual experiences. The fact needs to be recognized that the new generation scanners are not film friendly.
When/if they become more common, there is reason to assume (or hope) the security personnel will accordingly become more aware of film related issues. Apparently this has already taken place in the US, no?
At Heathrow, on the other hand, they state that:
"Independent tests have shown that Heathrow's x-ray machines do not affect camera films. If you are carrying professional film rated ISO 800 or faster, you can request the film be searched by alternative means. We will accommodate this where possible but this cannot be guaranteed."
So, I am assuming that at present they are not using the next gen scanners. As said here already, this is something that we need to keep an eye on. If nothing else, by giving customer feedback airport personnel can be informed of the issue.
We are, after all, customers at airports. (One reason for the new scanning tech is to make the security checks faster by being able to let passengers keep laptops in their bags).
Highway 61
Revisited
Pan, I'm not too sure what you can do with 3-4 films only if you go for, say, two weeks to a remote place with many things out there which match your personal photographic mood. I don't think that the quality relies in the quantity, of course, but...
That said, it's the same with, say, 20-30 films. I too always put my bare films in a transparent ziploc pouch, without their original packagings, was it for 135 or 120. At this point I was never upset with having the ziploc go through the carry-on luggage X-rays machines because I've never been at any airport using the new CT-scan machines (my last flight was from Lyon to Naples in October 2019). So I never asked for hand check. I was very kindly offered hand check at Washington Ronald Reagan once (October 2018), but since there was no CT-scan machine there, there was no thrill.
Given what I have noticed elsewhere, I am pretty certain I would have been rudely refused a hand check of my films ziploc at, say, 95% of the airports I went through.
I wonder what would now happen to a traveler keeping his films in his pants pockets, provided that there is no metal : 120 films or 135 films bulk-loaded in all plastic reloadable cartridges shouldn't make the metal detector beep. Are people bodies CT-scanned too ?
nickthetasmaniac
Veteran
Fwiw I'd be pretty cautious doing that. I work in the public service and as soon as anyone starts to offer cash to get something done a certain way, it's instant red flags.
telenous
Well-known
I 've thought about a possible workaround the first time I read about the problem (probably in this board). The only thing I could come up with for my circumstances (I usually travel with no more than ~20-30 rolls) is to buy film locally as soon as I arrive and then develop (also locally) and and have the negatives sent home by post. I understand this will not work for the quantity of film the OP is talking about, nor if you travel to exotic places without any film support network.
HHPhoto
Well-known
Do I understand you right:
These new Smith scanners are the new CT scanner type?
But nevertheless they say it is safe for film up to 1600 ISO?
Is there a kind of new, film-safe technology in them?
Thanks in advance!
Jan
P.S.: I have just looked at the datasheet of that new machine and Haven't found any statements about film. Where have you found it?
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I was planning to use 4x5” ektachrome here in Chile and bring it back to the USA for development since I can’t find anyone to do it here. This changes that plan. I just don’t want to deal with hoping for hand check while dealing with immigration crap, etc. Might have to go b&w unfortunately.
valdas
Veteran
Well, I found it here:
https://www.amateurphotographer.co....t-scanners-to-undergo-independent-tests-26726
However, I now realize that this iso 1600 safety statement was probably related to an older Hi-Scan 6040aTIX scanner, not a HI-SCAN 6040 CTiX (and that was quite an old thread anyway).
KM-25
Well-known
I might have misrepresented the context.
I had said that if and when security officials at the policy level discuss how and if to bring in additional securely personnel to accommodate a hand check appointment, I was sure many who were bringing over 200 rolls in and out of a country would gladly pay say, $200 per major inspection point in order to be able to setup this special hand check appointment.
das
Well-known
Is the original post about pros carrying hundreds of rolls on assignment or is it about vacationing with film? Although I haven't stepped onto an airplane this past year, I have never ever gotten "pushback" about hand checks. If people in 2021 are being refused this at places other than Heathrow, which is a very specific place, I would like to hear from those people if they can chime in. And whether people asked for a supervisor if the security person refused. If no such stories exist, I'm not sure whether there actually is a problem.
rfaspen
[insert pithy phrase here]
Off hand I can remember...
Sofia, Bulgaria: mixed but usually will hand check. Prague, Czech R.: absolute refusal, similar to Heathrow but my experiences are relatively few.
Shannon, Ireland: no refusals. Nice security.
Manchester, UK: no refusal but limited experience.
Heathrow, UK: always refuse with extreme prejudice
San Francisco, USA: refused once
Portland, USA: refused once. Very busy
Miami, Florida: no refusals
Seattle, Washington: no refusals
Denver: no
Salt lake City: no
Spokane, no
Bozeman, no, almost too nice here!
Sofia, Bulgaria: mixed but usually will hand check. Prague, Czech R.: absolute refusal, similar to Heathrow but my experiences are relatively few.
Shannon, Ireland: no refusals. Nice security.
Manchester, UK: no refusal but limited experience.
Heathrow, UK: always refuse with extreme prejudice
San Francisco, USA: refused once
Portland, USA: refused once. Very busy
Miami, Florida: no refusals
Seattle, Washington: no refusals
Denver: no
Salt lake City: no
Spokane, no
Bozeman, no, almost too nice here!
RObert Budding
D'oh!
Not really a concern right now.
https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...-travel-advisories-citing-risks-from-covid-19
https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...-travel-advisories-citing-risks-from-covid-19