Film Rangefinder TTL Flash - few choices: Minolta CLE, Leica M6TTL M7

[CameraQuest]

Despite TTL flash being built into hundreds, maybe thousands(s) of different film SLR models, by my count only three film rangefinders have TTL flash capability:

Minolta CLE 1980-1986? CameraQuest info HERE uses Minolta 700 compatible TTL flash
Leica M6 TTL 1998-2002 uses Metz SCA TTL compatible flash
Leica M7 2002-2018 uses Metz SCA TTL compatible flash

That's all the film rangefinder TTL flash cameras folks!

Oddly enough, the ultra expensive current production Leica MP family has NO TTL flash.
Pity. Why would it make sense to Leica not to include TTL flash with their flagship film camera?
Maybe lack of TTL flash sales?

With so few RF TTL film flash cameras, has anyone tested RF TTL film flash exposures compared to non TTL auto thyrister flash exposures such as the Nikon SB flash system?

Is RF TTL film flash worth the limitations of so few camera and flash choices,
or is non TTL auto thyrister exposure so good it really does not make much difference?

Stephen

 

[Gregm61]

Does one see any amount of interest in TTL flash among the vast, vast majority of film rangefinder users?

I certainly do not see it and I often do look while scanning all the posts as I utilize both a Leica TTL SF60 flash unit and the wireless trigger with my digital bodies, the M262 and CL. Being able to high speed sync, filling shadows outdoors at 1/2000 or 1/4000 second is nice option to have, but for indoor flash photography units that offer non-TTL auto work just fine.

I have used a couple of my Olympus Micro Four-thirds flash units with both of the above Leica digital cameras in non-TTL auto indoors before I sunk the money into the current dedicated Leica TTL system.

 

[charjohncarter]

As Greg says, plain old auto thyristor flash is really just the same as TTL indoors: the flash is still sensing or the camera is sensing like an auto flash. I have had success for 40++ years using auto flash outdoors, but you have the synch speed problem. So I use a Rolleiflex or some other leaf shutter camera: like an Olympus 35RC.

Outdoor fill: set the camera aperture one stop closed from the auto flash setting, use an ambient shutter speed of choice. Now just walk around, focus and shoot at your neighbor's party.

The big plus, you don't have to have a read out on your flash screen as well as your camera; so no manuals to read when you have forgotten the rules from the last time you used it.

And if you want to do the new flash fad of 'beating the sun', it is just as easy to use a ND filter. They cost less than an HHS flash, but they don't have the screen interface of a new flash.

Here is beating the sun using an 3 stop ND filter:

Pentax K1 ColorPerfect-beating the sun by John Carter, on Flickr

One caveat: if you use an old flash on a digital camera get a wein safe or check the trigger voltage.

 

[Archlich]

The flash metering capability of my M7 is average at best though, plus that it glitches almost constantly. I opted for an Auto flash on it.

 

[madNbad]

I took the time and effort to assemble a three light kit of Metz 54-MZ3 wit the 3505 module to use with a M6 TTL Millennium. The problem was, by the time I started assembling the kit, early in 2013, Metz had moved on I was using equipment that was several years out of date. The hope was the flashes would be able to communicate the TTL information wirelessly and it often did but not under all circumstances. In 2014 we were preparing for a road trip around the US to visit my far flung family. Before we left, I sold or traded the Metz flashes for a similar number of LumoPro LP180's, several Pocket Wizards and a Sekonic 308s. The results were good and never had a triggering problem indoors or out. Both the Millennium and the light kit were sold but I did learn quite a bit about strobe lighting.
I also owned a SF-24d. A nice little flash that communicated well with the in camera TTL. Would had been a much better flash if Metz had included a swiveling reflector.

 

[Robert Lai]

For Leica M6TTL, M7, and R8

For Leica M6TTL, M7, and R8

To utilize the full advantages of TTL flash control with these Leica cameras, you need to use a Metz flash: 54 MZ-3, or 54 MZ-4.
These can be your master flash units.

You need the appropriate SCA adapters to make this work.
Metz SCA 3501 will work for M6TTL, M7, and R8
Metz SCA 3502 will work for the above cameras and the R9.

My experience is with the SCA 3502 with the 54 MZ-3 and 54 MZ-4.
I don't know how much of a difference there are between the two 54 MZ - 3/4 units, and I suspect that it doesn't make a big difference for Leica cameras.

With the Metz 54 MZ - 3/4 + SCA 3502 using the M7,
I have these options:
1) High speed flash synch (manual, guide number based exposure) for shutter speeds 1/250 to 1/1000.
2) TTL flash control for X - synch shutter speeds (1/50 lightning bolt symbol) and slower
3) Multiflash TTL control (with the SCA 3083 units, more about this below)
4) First or second curtain flash synch.

To use multiple flash units, place the SCA 3083 slave module on the flashes you designate as "slaves". The unit with the 3502 module then becomes the master. You will get TTL flash control for the master AND ALL OF THE SLAVE units. It's rather neat and convenient when you are using a slave to illuminate the background. I don't have to calculate distances with guide numbers, for example, as to how far back I need to put the slave unit. For shooting with slide film, which has a low contrast ratio tolerance, I can place another "slave" at an angle to the camera, from the front, and use that as the main light while the on-camera flash acts as a fill light for a 1:2 ratio.

I use any obliging Metz SCA flash unit to serve the slave function: 40 MZ-3i, and even the handlemount 45-CL-4 digital will serve in this function.

Leica flashes - I own the Leica SF-58, which I suspect is a Metz product rebadged. It will provide TTL flash control, and second curtain flash control on my M7, but it won't allow me to use the High Speed Synch mode.

The final issue: the M6 TTL, M7, and R8 / R9 are all discontinued.
Metz has discontinued all of the above flashes, and the SCA units are no longer in production. I hoarded up a small stash of these flashes and adapters when I found out. I tried the Leica SF-58 to see if it could do the same thing, but it can't.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Looks like TTL flash and RF are next to irrelevant.
Used Bessas R series cameras costs twice, three times more than they used to cost new. And TTL flash was totally ignored in all Bessas.

 

[Robert Lai]

Trigger Voltages and Currents

Trigger Voltages and Currents

Now we must talk about safe practices. Basically, you need to use a prophylactic every time. Your M6TTL circuit boards are no longer in production, and Leica doesn't have any more. If you fry your M6 TTL circuit board, your camera's going to be crippled for life.

I was told by Don Goldberg that the M7 has a triggering transistor for the flash (SCR?) that is rated to 600 V. This is all fine and good. But, it's not rated for high currents. Going into ancient technology, I decided to try using flash bulbs with my M7. The flash bulb guns use 22.5 V, but when they fire, their capacitors discharge several AMPERES of current. The M7 tolerated about 3 - 4 of these firings, and then the circuit died. I had to send it to Leica in New Jersey. $775 later, and a lot wiser, I have my M7 back.

Since then, I've designed my own safe circuits which isolate the camera (using a MOSFET), so that the camera sees 5V at 0.265 microamps when triggering the flash. The bulb flash unit at 22.5V is safe, as the MOSFET is rated for 60V with 128 AMPS peak. I tried the commercially available safe synchs, (e.g. Wein), and they promptly burned out after just one or two firings with a bulb flash, as they can't handle the high current load. I actually burned out a MOSFET transistor when I plugged in an ancient Agfa flash unit that had a 300V trigger level. Since then, I've purged all of the old high voltage flashes from my collection. Into the landfill with you!

(The exception is a Canon Speedlite 133D, for which I play with the CAT system on my Canon EF and FTb).

The Metz flash units that I've mentioned above are safe to use with your M6TTL / M7 / R8 / R9.

 

[Robert Lai]

Guide Numbers - the most accurate exposure method

Guide Numbers - the most accurate exposure method

Leica had to collaborate with Metz to implement their TTL flash control schemes for these cameras. Voigtlander didn't feel the need to enter into such a complex arrangement with Metz.

Regardless of on-camera TTL control, or auto-flash, the problem has always been reliance on the reflectivity of the subject. If the world was 18% grey, then your exposure would always be perfect. Of course, there are exceptions, such as a girl in a white snow suit against a snow-covered landscape, or a black cat at night. These type of situations will throw off your flash exposure.

The most reliable exposure method continues to be the oldest: the guide number (GN)
GN = aperture x distance.

Thus, the shooting aperture = GN / distance by algebraic rearrangement.

E.g. for the Nikon BC-7 fan flash unit, with ISO 100 film, a blue M3 bulb (M3B) has a guide number of 160.
At a distance of 10 feet, you would use f/16:
160 / 10 = 16. (BTW, these are real numbers from my testing).

Nikon made this super easy with the 45mm GN Nikkor f/2.8. Set your guide number, and push in the lock, and now your aperture varies as you focus. It's for this reason that I have the GN Nikkor on my Nikon F, with the BC-7 flash unit 😀.

Canon had a somewhat more awkward CAT system, that uses a rheostat ring around the front of the lens, coupled to the focusing ring of certain lenses (e.g. 50 mm f/1.4 FD SSC), to tell the camera exposure system what the correct aperture should be for the focused distance. This was used on the F1, FTb, and EF cameras in the early 1970s. I am currently rebuilding a Speedlite 133D with a new capacitor, in order to experience this wonderful technology first hand. The capacitor required is rated at 500 uF, 330 V DC.

The simplest solution: focus your camera at the desired distance for the aperture you want. In the above example, if I want to shoot at f/16, then set the lens to 10 feet on the distance scale. Then, when the rangefinder indicates that the subject is in focus, you can fire the flash with correct exposure guaranteed.

 

[Timmyjoe]

Hey Robert, I hear you about the older flashes burning up newer digital circuits. After I mistakenly plugged one of my Vivitar 283's into my Sekonic 308S instead of my Sekonic 308, and fried the flash circuit, I got rid of both the 283's. Digital flash circuits are too expensive to replace, just to use old flash systems.

Best,
-Tim

 

[hap]

Leica had to collaborate with Metz to implement their TTL flash control schemes for these cameras. Voigtlander didn't feel the need to enter into such a complex arrangement with Metz.

Regardless of on-camera TTL control, or auto-flash, the problem has always been reliance on the reflectivity of the subject. If the world was 18% grey, then your exposure would always be perfect. Of course, there are exceptions, such as a girl in a white snow suit against a snow-covered landscape, or a black cat at night. These type of situations will throw off your flash exposure.

The most reliable exposure method continues to be the oldest: the guide number (GN)
GN = aperture x distance.

Thus, the shooting aperture = GN / distance by algebraic rearrangement.

E.g. for the Nikon SC-7 fan flash unit, with ISO 100 film, a blue M3 bulb (M3B) has a guide number of 160.
At a distance of 10 feet, you would use f/16:
160 / 10 = 16. (BTW, these are real numbers from my testing).

Nikon made this super easy with the 45mm GN Nikkor f/2.8. Set your guide number, and push in the lock, and now your aperture varies as you focus. It's for this reason that I have the GN Nikkor on my Nikon F, with the SC-7 flash unit 😀.

Canon had a somewhat more awkward CAT system, that uses a rheostat ring around the front of the lens, coupled to the focusing ring of certain lenses (e.g. 50 mm f/1.4 FD SSC), to tell the camera exposure system what the correct aperture should be for the focused distance. This was used on the F1, FTb, and EF cameras in the early 1970s. I am currently rebuilding a Speedlite 133D with a new capacitor, in order to experience this wonderful technology first hand. The capacitor required is rated at 500 uF, 330 V DC.

The simplest solution: focus your camera at the desired distance for the aperture you want. In the above example, if I want to shoot at f/16, then set the lens to 10 feet on the distance scale. Then, when the rangefinder indicates that the subject is in focus, you can fire the flash with correct exposure guaranteed.

I have a bunch of m3 bulbs......but can’t find a sc7 bulb fan. Only synch cord. Where do you get these things?

Presume compatible with Nikon Rf and a bracket?

 

[Robert Lai]

Old high voltage electronic flash units just aren't safe. Their rightful resting place is the landfill.


I started using the bulb flash units when I started hiking in the hills here in Arkansas. The wimpy light output of portable electronic flash units aren't enough to light up broad expanses of gloom or shadow. So, I delved into the world of flash bulbs.


Kodak made a slave unit which responds to the slow rise time of flash bulbs. (It works with electronic flash as a trigger also). It's called the "Kodak Electric-Eye Remote Flash Unit". It folds up in a calmshell. Open it, and pop in a flash bulb, and you have a slave bulb flash unit. This is an easy way to use multiple bulb flash units.


Last tip: bulb flash units and old cameras are amazing chick magnets. I was invited by a friend a year ago, to attend an event where high school girls were getting scholarship money awards for college. I brought my M2 along with a Leitz CEYOO and some M3 flash bulbs. The girls and their mothers went berserk! They kept asking me to take their picture with "that awesome camera". I pity the poor dudes with their DSLRs!

 

[Robert Lai]

Nikon bulb flash units.

Nikon bulb flash units.

Hap,
Sorry, I had a typo. It's a Nikon BC-7 (BC = battery capacitor).
This was made for the Nikon F, as the "hot shoe" flash contact is in the back of the flash shoe.


If you want to use a bulb flash on a Nikon rangefinder, you need the BC-5. This has the "hot shoe" flash contact on the front of the unit, corresponding to its location on the camera.


The capacitors on the Nikon BC-7 have been uniformly good.
For most other flash units (I have several, including Heiland, Graflex, Leica, Minicam, Ricoh, Minolta, Canon), the capacitor is usually dead. It is not too difficult to open up the capacitor cartridge, desolder the old capacitor and solder in a new capacitor. Something like 200 uF at > 25 V is usually adequate.

 

[madNbad]

I have a bunch of m3 bulbs......but can’t find a sc7 bulb fan. Only synch cord. Where do you get these things?

Presume compatible with Nikon Rf and a bracket?

The fan flash with the foot for a Nikon rewind mount is a BC-7. I had one for a while and I found a new battery for it on Amazon. Also the 45 GN lens is the only Nikon lens to focus right to left like Leica and Canon.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

If you need girls and moms attention, wear something odd as camera.
I was asked today if I'm photographer while wearing E-PL1 with knock-off 12-42 zoom on old FujiFilm P&S neck strap. By young female cashier in the ethnic store.
Not so long time ago I was highlighted by young female visitor in charity store. She was after Nikkormat on me.
Mature female cashiers are after film M. Trust me.
It feels so enlightening 🙂

But never try to wear FED-2 with leather case on steampunk event. Ladies will go after this leather case at your innocent chest.

 

[hap]

Old high voltage electronic flash units just aren't safe. Their rightful resting place is the landfill.


I started using the bulb flash units when I started hiking in the hills here in Arkansas. The wimpy light output of portable electronic flash units aren't enough to light up broad expanses of gloom or shadow. So, I delved into the world of flash bulbs.


Kodak made a slave unit which responds to the slow rise time of flash bulbs. (It works with electronic flash as a trigger also). It's called the "Kodak Electric-Eye Remote Flash Unit". It folds up in a calmshell. Open it, and pop in a flash bulb, and you have a slave bulb flash unit. This is an easy way to use multiple bulb flash units.


Last tip: bulb flash units and old cameras are amazing chick magnets. I was invited by a friend a year ago, to attend an event where high school girls were getting scholarship money awards for college. I brought my M2 along with a Leitz CEYOO and some M3 flash bulbs. The girls and their mothers went berserk! They kept asking me to take their picture with "that awesome camera". I pity the poor dudes with their DSLRs!

When my son was in a large boys choir (75-100) I'd take group pictures with my Weegee Crown graphic, star wars light bracket with reflector, and one huge bulb that would light up a basketball gym.


I used the smaller bulbs for my fathers firsts camera, a baby Graphic.


Got a LOT!!! of attention.

 

[hap]

The fan flash with the foot for a Nikon rewind mount is a BC-7. I had one for a while and I found a new battery for it on Amazon. Also the 45 GN lens is the only Nikon lens to focus right to left like Leica and Canon.

Yes, BC-7. Unfortunately, on Nikon RF no 45 GN 2.8 lens and no hot shoe to fire the reflector. need bracket, handle, reflector and sc-7 synch cord.

 

[hap]

Old high voltage electronic flash units just aren't safe. Their rightful resting place is the landfill.


I started using the bulb flash units when I started hiking in the hills here in Arkansas. The wimpy light output of portable electronic flash units aren't enough to light up broad expanses of gloom or shadow. So, I delved into the world of flash bulbs.


Kodak made a slave unit which responds to the slow rise time of flash bulbs. (It works with electronic flash as a trigger also). It's called the "Kodak Electric-Eye Remote Flash Unit". It folds up in a calmshell. Open it, and pop in a flash bulb, and you have a slave bulb flash unit. This is an easy way to use multiple bulb flash units.


Last tip: bulb flash units and old cameras are amazing chick magnets. I was invited by a friend a year ago, to attend an event where high school girls were getting scholarship money awards for college. I brought my M2 along with a Leitz CEYOO and some M3 flash bulbs. The girls and their mothers went berserk! They kept asking me to take their picture with "that awesome camera". I pity the poor dudes with their DSLRs!

You mean "pity the fool" the doesn't have a camera with bulb flash working on it.


Not sure if SX-70 counts or not.

 

[Robert Lai]

Yes, when a big flash bulb goes off, everyone in the room is aware of it! It focuses attention on your subjects, and frankly - women love attention.


I used to wander around my workplace with a Minolta Autocord and a Heiland flash gun (Star Wars style). That was in the old days before everyone got so nervous about photography at work. It helped me to get to know people, and they really wanted to get into a photograph.

 

[Robert Lai]

Nikon RF flash synch

Nikon RF flash synch

On the Nikon S2, S3, S4 and SP, there is a flash electrode at the front of the accessory shoe. On the BC-4 (S2 era) and BC-5 flash units, a pointy electrode drops down to make contact with the flash electrode.


From what I can see, the BC-5 is the Nikon RF version of the BC-7.
The BC-7 has the flash electrode at the back of the flash to mate with the contact behind the rewind knob of the F, opposite of the rangefinder cameras.


Nikon made a Flash Accessory Shoe (AS) for the Nikon F, to allow it to use the old rangefinder camera's BC-4 and BC-5 flash units.
Here are mir's instructions for the Nikon BC-5
https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/nikonf3ver2/flash/BC5manual/index.htm