Canon LTM First impressions of my new P

[markbrennan]

Hey Everyone -

This forum was so helpful in answering my questions about the P and 50mm lenses that I thought I should at least let everyone know I recently purchased one from KEH. I'm particularly grateful to JLM, ChrisN, Michael (mjm6), Joe, djon, John Shriver, Brian, rotzbremse and many others for their great feedback and advice.

I decided to purchase from KEH mostly for peace of mind and because they're so generally well regarded. Frankly, I ended up spending more on the body than I would have through my private seller or some of the eBay auctions I was following but I liked having the 14 day return and the 60 day warranty.

I bought a body that KEH had rated Excellent Plus, and indeed it's in beautiful condition. I also got a Canon 1.8 50, rated a Bargain (they didn't have anything better and it's optically clean.)

First impressions? This is one solid piece of camera! I'm very impressed w/ the weight and heft and feel in the hand. A beautiful piece of machinery. Clean, elegant interface. I just love the simplicity of the design. There's nothing distracting or superfluous on the body.

The film advance lever is wonderfully smooth. Shutter release is clean. Shooting w/ this camera is a true pleasure.

When I went from a Nikon D70 to a Nikon FM2 I was impressed by the simplicity of the FM2, but this takes it a step further. Having a fully manual body w/out a meter strikes me as simple, direct and liberating. I've purchased a Sekonic 308S meter, which feels good in my hand and is very easy to use. I estimate exposure, check it w/ the meter, then adjust if necessary. If the lighting changes, I often change my settings w/out another reading. Being able to re-frame/focus w/out seeing another meter reading through an on-board meter is a relief. And coming from an SLR it's just a joy not to hear the mirror slap or have the mirror blackout!

Lens seems fine, though I haven't had the test rolls developed yet. I'm not used to the lack of close focusing the 1.8 has, but can live w/ it.

One issue/question - I love the finder and framelines. Again, it's wonderful to escape what I thought were distractions of the SLR system, including what I considered the limitation of seeing ONLY what the lens sees. I love the openness of the frame and the 50mm framelines are great.

However, I suspect there may be some flare w/ the finder. It may partly be the fact that I need to get used to RF focusing, but occassionlly I look through the finder and it doesn't seem 100% clear. It's almost a kind of haze. But the finder looks good and again, KEH rated the body EX+, which is a good rating. Anyone else ever experienced anything similar w/ their P? Is it partly a matter of my getting used to the way the RF patch blurs up a bit?


Thanks and regards,
-Mark

 

[taffer]

Congrats on your P baptism Mark 🙂

As for the finder, I noticed some flare when pointing it towards some light source and turning it a bit. Something that helps to get a clear rf patch is to have your eye well centered in the finder.

Enjoy it, it's a superb camera and incredibly well made.

Oscar

 

[markbrennan]

Thanks, Oscar. Yes, centering the eye helps. It's an adjustment for me to go from the narrow, "tunnel" view of an SLR to the open field of the RF finder, where the scene you frame overflows the framelines. So I think part of it is the distraction of this new way of looking. I also find the patch a bit weird, if truth be told. But after several rolls I expect I'll get used to it.
-Mark

 

[back alley]

congrats on your 'new' p!
i think you'll be very happy with it and especially the 50/1.8 lens.

i never notice the flare, maybe because i mostly shoot outdoors. when fooling around in the house, if i aim at a bare bulb, the finder flares quite a bit. none of mine are hazy though but i'm guessing that look you describe is the flare. one of mine is so good it glows and the framelines are very bright.
i too love the look & feel of the body and it's simplicity also. and no meter is very liberating. my shooting is actually faster than with an auto everything camera, especially with a wide angle.

the adventure begins...

joe

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Almost any RF viewfinder will flare if sunlight hits it directly. The Canon P, and My Nikon S3, flare more than others because they have huge 1x finders made for 35mm lenses FOV. They have a bigger acceptance angle.

However, haze in a viewfinder can make it worse. Take a flashlight an shine it into the glass. If it is "smoky", haze (usually from lubricants) may be on the glass. This can be cleaned off, like cleaning a lens. My Vt and VIt were hazed over and cleared up beautifully. This was NOT the issue with my Nikon S3, it is clean but can still catch light which reflects around.

A quick test with a flashlight will "illuminate" the issue. If it is Hazy, a cleaning would be in order.

 

[PaulN]

When I went from a Nikon D70 to a Nikon FM2 I was impressed by the simplicity of the FM2, but this takes it a step further.

I wonder how many other people are going back to film after buying into the rangefinder system. I went from a D60 to an R-D1 over to a Leica and am loving it. My wife loves the R-D1 though and now considers it "her" camera. We are now fighting over who gets to use what lense. I never had this problem when I had the D60. It had too many buttons for her. Now she is setting everything manually and understands the interaction between shutter speed, aperture, depth of field, light conditions, etc.

My next step is to start souping my film in Diafine. I have the solutions mixed up, but haven't had a chance to run the film through it yet. I have ready many great posts about it on RFF and am eager to run some film through it. The fact that you can take TX-400 and shoot from 200 - 1600+ on the same roll sounds appealing. Almost like digital, but you still have the benefits of film.

Hope you enjoy the camera!

 

[planetjoe]

Congratulations on you new P. It's a great machine.

I've noticed some flare issues as well, but I haven't yet tried the flashlight trick. I think I've secretly assumed that I'm heading for a CLA anyway. My RF patch is pretty dim (i.e., low-contrast), so sometimes centering my field of view is a little difficult. This was especially the case when shooting a 135mm lens without an auxiliary viewfinder.

I'm especially appreciative of your assessment of KEH's quality regarding the Canon RF gear - I've been buying from KEH since forever, but haven't yet experimented with their stock of RF stuff. They're pretty conservative, and so all the RF stuf seems to be "Bargain". Were your shutter curtains wrinkled?

Enjoy that P. The next thing you should do, in my opinion, is go out and get a Jupiter-12 for your 35mm work. I just found one, and it's a happy marriage with my P.


Cheers,
--joe.

 

[djon]

Flare seems standard-issue with P and with many Leica M versions. The P is easy to clean...get a GOODish set of jewelers screwdrivers ($10-20 for a kit of a dozen at Home Depot I think), not those little kits with interchangable blades). Pick the screwdriver that most perfectly fits the screw that holds the front viewfinder frame in place. Remove that frame and the glass with it.* Use a lens cleaning tissue and lens cleaning fluid or water plus a very little photoflo to clean the removed glass. Let it dry, replace. Made a big difference on one of my Ps.

Even with perfectly clean glass it will flare under some circumstances. Just something to deal with. Your main option is a Leica M3.

* BE CAREFUL to do this work over a towel, so that if/when you drop the screw or a little part it doesn't go bouncing off into never-never land.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I have taken to using a Cafeteria Tray with towels on it, and Ice Cube trays for all the little parts when taking things apart. Line them up in the cube trays in order, then re-assemble going in reverse order.

Getting at the front glass on the Nikon RF's also helps a great deal.

 

[markbrennan]

Hey Everyone - thanks for the feedback!

Joe, thanks for the enthusiastic reply.

Brian, djon - appreciate the advice on the flare.

Paul, agree that film is great; don't think I'll be processing my own just yet, but it's a goal.

Joe, re. KEH, yes I thought their rating of this body was good and conservative; it's an Excellent +, but seems almost mint. They had an Excellent rated P, but w/ the proviso/qualitifcation that the advance was noisy. Though I'm sure it would have been great, I considered that one reason I wanted to go to a rangefinder was the noise issue of an SLR so I passed on that body.

Brian, djon - thanks for your comments on the flare issue. I've just shone a strong flashlight into the finder and actually find that I can't tell if it's smoky or not - haze or flare? Head on w/ the strong flashlight the flare is pretty overwhelming, such that the glass does appear to look almost "smoky"; turn the light away a bit and the glass looks clear and spotless.

I may try to open up the finder once I get the right tools, so I appreciate the careful instructions on this work (though to be candid I'm a bit timid w/ this kind of work).

Looking through the finder here at home w/ a few incandescent lights burning, it seems pretty clear. When I focus near a light source, usually during the initial "take" of the scene through the finder, I notice a hint of flare; then the finder kind of "evens out". It's very subtle. And again, the openness of the finder - the fact that I'm not looking through lens - stills takes getting used to. Of course using glasses exacerbates this. I spend a lot of time wearing glasses because of astigmatism, but don't really need them to shoot w/. So when I shoot I take them off and see fine; without the extra glass the finder seems quite clear and I love the sense of an unobstructed view.

All in all, I think it's a body eminently worth keeping. Not sure if an M3's finder has less flare or not. I handled an M3 a while back in a local shop and was impressed w/ the feel and the finder, but the P seems better in many ways: smoother, cleaner advance, nicer speed setting dial, of course the eminently more functional rewind and film loading, and better framelines. It's LTM instead of M, but as I'm learning from you veterans, there are some great LTM lenses out there.

I look forward to more P and LTM talk!

all best,
-Mark

 

[planetjoe]

Great thread, everybody.

djon: my question for you has to do with the VF cleaning you describe. Can I assume, then, that the major "user accessible" haze would accumulate on the VF objective glass, and not on the front element? The rear is the only piece with access.

Seems easy enough, otherwise.


--joe.

 

[VictorM.]

The front 'element' of the finder is cemented to two small prisms that are also cemented together. Cleaning the surfaces involves taking off the top plate.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The finder sounds clean. The flashlight at an off angle would have lit up haze. Dead on, you are lighting up the beamsplitter, and that is normal. Any finder will do that. The 1x finder and 35mm FOV does induce some "natural" flare, just goes with the territory. I often position my left hand over the top of the Nikon S3 finder to alleviate the flare in the few conditions that light comes into it. Most people are used to lens flare, and use hoods to guard against it. The finder is also a "lens", and sometimes I think a "finder-hood" would be a good idea. A little extension over the main window would do it.

 

[djon]

IMO it's not effective to judge "clean" without cleaning. Both of my Ps seemed clean when I started, one of them improved a great deal afterward.

I described the location/removal badly earlier: Just removed/replaced again in order to clarify for myself:

To remove the black rectangular eyepiece, remove the screw, then slide sideways (a clip continues to hold it in place until you slide it).

You'll find a very thin slip of optically-coated glass that's a part of the black eyepiece. (must be tough stuff because I don't recall anybody commenting on broken eyepieces)...

This is the rear " element" and it's NOT glued to a prism, it's a rectangular slip of glass that's clipped (& glued?) into the eyepiece. It removes with the eyepiece. I don't know if carelessness would cause it to separate from the eyepiece, but it seems well-attached. In one of my two Ps, cleaning this piece made a substantial difference in flare.

IMO this design inherently flares in some light conditions, but it's brilliant in low light and most conditions. I feel sure the designers were aware of this, faced an optical design conflict, and simply decided what to best facilitate.

Do we mostly use rangefinders in glaring broad daylight or do we use rangefinders to photograph people in environments? ...I suspect that's the question they asked themselves.

 

[planetjoe]

djon and Victor: thanks for clarifying your respective portions of this developing story. To show how "think-y" vs. "do-y" I am, I still haven't even done the flashlight test myself.

Brian: I think that finder-hood idea is excellent. I don't know if this was a hallucination, but I swear that I saw something of that nature somewhere. I think it was an aftermarket Leica add-on, kind of like a fresnel for the frameline illuminator.

Anyone recall that?


--joe.

 

[jlw]

IMO this design inherently flares in some light conditions, but it's brilliant in low light and most conditions. I feel sure the designers were aware of this, faced an optical design conflict, and simply decided what to best facilitate.

Right on, djon. The reflected-frameline system used in the P (as well as the VI, Nikon S3, Droug, and lots of accessory viewfinders) is inherently flare-prone under some lighting conditions because it incorporates a semi-reflecting surface to bounce the image of the framelines back to the viewer's eye. If stray light gets in the neighborhood of this semi-reflecting surface, it likewise gets bounced back into the field of view.

I also suspect this is why cleaning often helps so much with this type of finder. Any haze or crud in the finder optics not only directly affects viewing, but can scatter stray light back toward the semi-reflecting surface -- so cleaning has a double benefit!

[Be a bit careful when cleaning, though, about the reflective framelines inside the finder eyepiece. You really don't want to scratch these! Also, on the Canons, the framelines are on a glass plate that moves diagonally for parallax compensation, and you want to be careful that you don't knock this mechanism out of whack.]

 

[markbrennan]

Brian, djon, Jlw, Victor and Joe - great advice on this issue. thanks!

 

[mjm6]

Mark,

It's good to hear you got one. I now have two, and am pretty satisfied (well, with those two P's, a IIIf, a IVS2, a IIb, a Bessa R, about 5 Russians, and a whole slew of other things. I need to pare down substantially!).

I like the simplicity and style of the P's the best, for their Miesian form->functionality. The Barnack-styled cameras are surely beautiful cameras, but the P beats them in just about every way as a user camera.

I'm planning to paint one of the P's black, because I think the look best in black. I'm looking for specific paint suggestions that will match the somewhat glossy finish and color of the black painted parts on the cameras. Anyone have any suggestions?

I've got a Russian scarificial lamb already stripped and ready for paint, once I determine a suitable paint to use...


---Michael

 

[djon]

Michael, fine website. I've visited it before. How did you happen to be photographing our old RR barn? (I'm in Albuquerque)...

What kind of "paint" do you imagine? I might like to do that myself...suspect an epoxy finish would be better than enamel...but I think it'd take some serious masking unless there's a way to separate the plastic sheath from the metal body. What's your strategy?

 

[markbrennan]

Hi Michael - thanks for the reply. As Joe said, now "the adventure begins". I really feel that way in moving to this camera. As I've said, it's very liberating.

Nice point about the "Miesian form->functionality" - these really are truly "modern" cameras in that regard.

Now all I really need to do is find time to take pictures!

All best,
-Mark