Fogging from red counter window ? Super-Ikonta 530/2

[Luddite Frank]

I just picked-up my first roll from my "new" Z-I Super-Ikonta 530/2 6x9 folder.

Right now the shutter only works at 1/100 and 1/250, so I know that it needs to go for a CLA.

I was shooting Kodacolor 400 VC.

In about half the negatives, I noticed a greenish flare, in the lower left of the frame: from the edge inwards about 1/2 inch... it is in the same place in all images where it occurs.🙁

My suspicion is that this if from stray light coming in through the red frame-counter window...

My camera is an early one, with nickel trim and an un-masked red window on the back...

I do not have an eveready case for it.

Has anyone else run into this phenomenon shooting color-film in a pre-war folder?

( I'm suspecting that when this camaera was new (early 1930's), and the only films available were slow-speed ortho or Panchromatic films, that any light sneaking in through the red window would not fog the film...😕 )

TIA...

Luddite Frank

 

[whitecat]

The plastic loses some of its properties over the years. I have more than one which I cover with a small flap.

 

[Ernst Dinkla]

The Bessa I that I have showed a similar problem. At first I solved it by a strip of black tape over the red filter, lifting it for film transport control. Later on I discovered that the light wasn't going through the paper back of the film but more coming in sideways between the red window, the blind and the pressure plate and then on the film. The light traps on that path no longer working correctly. I removed the film pressure plate and solved that issue where it had to be corrected. Greased the pivot of the blind and it works again. I have no evidence that the red window isn't blocking light enough for modern films.


Ernst

 

[Luddite Frank]

Thanks for the replies thus far...

I took a quick look at the back of my 6x9 as I was on my way out the door this morning... it is a dual-format camera: 6x9 or 6x6 w/ mask, so there are two red windows: one in the upper-left of the back, the other just right of center (camera positioned for "landscape" )...

I remember seeing a folder or two that had "rings" of very "fluffy" black felt or yarn (read: easy compressible) around the counter windows - between the back and the pressure plate...

Has anyone created / replaced a similar light-trap in their folder ?


( I will try the black e-tape over the window approach for now. )

LF

 

[literiter]

Surrounding the "red window" opening, between the pressure plate and the back, you will find black flocking. This becomes flattened and tattered over time. I have found that it can help to replace this with the fuzzy half of black Velcro.

As well, keeping the camera in the case (if you have one) helps keep out stray light.

Another nasty problem as well, which may not be yours, is flare reflecting off the bellows and onto the film. The old bellows get a little shiny inside after a while and bright lights, sun or bright areas out of the frame will hit the bellows and cause considerable flare. Trust me on this.

Do this little experiment:
-Open the back of the camera, open the shutter at "B" and point the camera toward a desk lamp. If you move the camera so the light from the lamp strikes the bellows inside the camera you can easily see what I mean. The only real cure I've found, is to use a lens hood always.

 

[literiter]

I remember seeing a folder or two that had "rings" of very "fluffy" black felt or yarn (read: easy compressible) around the counter windows - between the back and the pressure plate...

Has anyone created / replaced a similar light-trap in their folder ?


LF

Our posts crossed paths it seems. Try the Velcro idea or black flocking available from Edmund Scientific. Velcro is easier to get and has a deeper pile. I'll bet thick black velvet would work too.

Remove the pressure plate and see if there are any shiny areas and paint with flat black paint.

 

[chippy]

Thanks for the replies thus far...

I took a quick look at the back of my 6x9 as I was on my way out the door this morning... it is a dual-format camera: 6x9 or 6x6 w/ mask, so there are two red windows: one in the upper-left of the back, the other just right of center (camera positioned for "landscape" )...

I remember seeing a folder or two that had "rings" of very "fluffy" black felt or yarn (read: easy compressible) around the counter windows - between the back and the pressure plate...

Has anyone created / replaced a similar light-trap in their folder ?


( I will try the black e-tape over the window approach for now. )

LF

yes Frank i think it is a process of elimination, starting with what you suspect the most.

by the way do you mean '6x6' with mask or perhaps 6x4,5. i have 1951 model and i am pretty sure the mask i have with it is for 6x4,5 (i dont really use the mask). if the red windows are horizontal with each other then its 6x4,5

great cameras, one of my absolute favoutites, though i dont know why.... it is cumbersom compared to some other brands/models 🙄, mabye thats why!

all is good with mine but the albada finda (thats the clear part? not the mirror part in front? or are people refering to the combination of both when they say albada finda?) is faintly yellowish as they get, mine quite good though. however i was considering taking it to perhaps an optomitrist (eye glasses shop) and asking if they could make something identical

 

[Luddite Frank]

It could have been 6x4.5 with the mask... the mask is missing.


My Super- Ikonta has both windows in -line with one another, relative to the long-axis of the camera.

I just took a look at my Rolfix Jr. (Franke Werk), which is 6x9 / 6 x 6, and the 6x6 window is right in the center of the back, the 6x9 is along the edge.

Is the Zeiss 6x9 / 6x4,5 mask marked with any sort of part-number ?


Thanks,

LF

 

[payasam]

You might try winding several turns of black cotton thread around the danger spot.

 

[chippy]

It could have been 6x4.5 with the mask... the mask is missing.


My Super- Ikonta has both windows in -line with one another, relative to the long-axis of the camera.

I just took a look at my Rolfix Jr. (Franke Werk), which is 6x9 / 6 x 6, and the 6x6 window is right in the center of the back, the 6x9 is along the edge.

Is the Zeiss 6x9 / 6x4,5 mask marked with any sort of part-number ?


Thanks,

LF

lol i went looking all over for my box that has all my Zeiss/Ikonta bit and peices in it and gave up thinking i would give the task to my daughter later. sat down at the computer and saw it on a shelf nearby :bang:

no it has no part number but it has pressed lettering with ziess ikon and 4 1/2x6....i guess you will need to crop 6x9 if you want 6x6..only a little wastage

yes in line with each other is dual format 6x9/6x4,5...in a 6x4.5 only camera it will look the same as yours in most cases (they can be different at times,,one window bottom left for instance). 6x6 is in the center and dual 6x6 and 6x4.5 can be in different position depending on the camera model but one window is center always. 6x9 on its own is usualy just one upper left of coarse

 

[chippy]

I just picked-up my first roll from my "new" Z-I Super-Ikonta 530/2 6x9 folder.

Right now the shutter only works at 1/100 and 1/250, so I know that it needs to go for a CLA.

I was shooting Kodacolor 400 VC.

In about half the negatives, I noticed a greenish flare, in the lower left of the frame: from the edge inwards about 1/2 inch... it is in the same place in all images where it occurs.🙁

My suspicion is that this if from stray light coming in through the red frame-counter window...

My camera is an early one, with nickel trim and an un-masked red window on the back...

I do not have an eveready case for it.

Has anyone else run into this phenomenon shooting color-film in a pre-war folder?

( I'm suspecting that when this camaera was new (early 1930's), and the only films available were slow-speed ortho or Panchromatic films, that any light sneaking in through the red window would not fog the film...😕 )

TIA...

Luddite Frank

frank did you check to see if the film/negative was affected to the film edge and not just within the masked edge area inwards? just thought i would get a clarifaction on this

 

[Luddite Frank]

frank did you check to see if the film/negative was affected to the film edge and not just within the masked edge area inwards? just thought i would get a clarifaction on this

Andrew,

I just looked at the negs again to check on this.


Out of 8 possible frames (6x9), I have 6 images (missed two due to counting errors on my part). The blank frames are completely transparent.

Of the three images showing the flare, two show it going all way to the lower-left corner edges of the film, holding the neg so that the image is right-side up and any writing in the shot is readable. The third shot exhibiting the flare still has it in that same corner of the image, but a much smaller spot (1/2" circle), about 3/8" in from the edges of the.

Two of the un-flared images were shot vertically ("portrait" ); all exposures were made outdoors on a fairly bright, sunny day, trying to keep my back to the sun. I was using a meter (Luna-Six)

Another thing that puzzles me is that the numbering on the edges of the negs seems to run in reverse of the order in which I shot the pics... film was Kodak 400 VC.

I think I'm going to take the negs back to my lab and ask them to run a contact sheet.


Thanks for your input !

LF

 

[chippy]

it is curious why it has only occured in a couple of frames but possible if the leak is not too strong and perhaps on those frames you lingured a little while or the camera was exposed more directly to light.

with the fault showing all the way to the edge of the film it should rule out any lens associated flare or bellows (unless way near the film plane, but you can test that easy). as such it should be from processing, rear door or as you suspect from the red window.

leaks in colour often show up as a burning red glow or in truth they can be other colours as well..i have seen it turn the whole picture a purple shade. but yours is green....i am only guessing but that leads me to think it is the red window as the red changes the colour spectrum hitting the film to what i think would be green. i may be wrong but it will be interesting to find out

 

[literiter]

Here is the pressure plate on a similar camera a Super Ikonta 531-2.
The thick velvet will crush or wear out over time and need to be replaced. I think your camera has this issue. Use thick black velvet or black velcro.

SI-Pressure-plate.jpg

The red windows are from another time when black and white film film was not so sensitive to red light. My camera had the same issue as yours. I replaced the velvet and now I don't have the problem.

Light will sneak in by various means. It can be hard to tell. I would apply some flat black paint or "camera flocking" material around the windows and if possible some extra around the holes in the pressure plate.

SI-back.jpg

 

[Luddite Frank]

"What the flock ? "

"What the flock ? "

Thanks for the pics, Literiter, and the additional input, Chippy ....


I got brave and carefully removed the pressure-plate from my 530/2, and indeed, there is a square of pile flocking around each peep-hole in the pressure plate.

I noticed that on the flocking surrounding the hole for the 6x9 counter window, the outer edge of pile was really mashed-down...

I then recalled that when I first received the camera, there was a dent in the back, between the 6x9 window and the hinge. Being able to access the backside of the dent easily, I just pushed it out with thumb pressure, feeling pretty pleased with result, and thought no more of it.

Well, apparently that dent had been there for many years, and had squeezed the pressure-plate tight against the camera back on that corner, compressing the flocking, and flattening the pile. When I relieved the dent, the pile did not spring back, and I suspect this is the culprit in my corner-fogging.

I applied the steam from my wife's iron to the flocking, and gently brushed the pile upright, but it still looks a little thin on the outside edge, so I think I'm just going to do new flocking.

And now some more questions:

Literiter: is that new flocking on the plate in your j-peg ? Did Zeiss put those additional "buttons" of flocking on the egde opposite the holes, or was that your upgrade ? ( It seems like a good idea to keep plate parallel to the camera back...)
Does your 532 have the sliding covers over the counter holes ?

Lightseals: it looks as though there are strips of light-seal along the inside edges of the camera back, that bear against the thin edge of the camera body when the back is closed - is this a factory feature ? What material did they use ( it appears to be a fabric, not a fluffy pile...) ?

Thanks again for the help !

Luddite Frank

 

[literiter]

Hi Frank,

I found a bit of black Velcro, cut it into squares, stamped a hole in it with a leather punch, and kept the centers. (The black Velcro was found at our local hardware store in a large roll. One side is Velcro and the other is some really good adhesive. I only needed two inches of it and the guy gave it to me. Velcro is two part, as you know, one part has hooks and the other side is a thick wool type fabric. Just perfect.)

I removed the old flocking, which looks exactly like my replacement, and installed the Velcro in it's place.
Those additional buttons appear on all three of my cameras. I replaced them with the centers I cut from the Velcro.

My 531-2s have the sliding buttons over the windows.

Since I had the camera apart anyway, to take the pics, I placed bits of flocking (available at Edmund Scientific in their telescope dept.) around the holes and everywhere I thought light could either get in or be reflected. I put some around the red windows as well. The flocking has a sticky backing, as well, but the pile is not as deep as the Velcro.
None of my cameras has the light seals you mention. I'll bet its just black dyed cotton cloth.

I would heartily recommend you find a case for your camera. It will help with the light leaks somewhat.

These are really fine old cameras. Well worth the effort to get working properly. Your version will not have the dreaded Albada finder.

 

[Luddite Frank]

Thanks, ' Riter !

I will check-out Edmund Scientific for the flocking, and my local Mom & Pop Hardware store sells Velcro by the foot, so I'll get some of that too.


I really like 6x9 format ( generally prefer rectangular to 6x6 square), and I hope to make this 530 a viable shooter.

As for the Albada finder, I'm not sure exactly what that means; everytime I've seen the term applied to a finder, it's usually a flip-up type with two lenses - is there more to it than that ?
( I have noticed folks commenting about Albada finders going yellow or dingy...)

My 530 has a flip-up finder (with lenses) that pops when you open the camera; and a 6x4,5 mask pops-up with the front lens, so I have to swing that back down. The view through mine is pretty clean.

I'm going to look for an ER case for it; in the meantime, I have a "shoulder case" with my Rolfix Jr. (Franke) that I can borrow for the Zeiss...


Thanks for all your help !


Frank

 

[FallisPhoto]

I just picked-up my first roll from my "new" Z-I Super-Ikonta 530/2 6x9 folder.

Right now the shutter only works at 1/100 and 1/250, so I know that it needs to go for a CLA.

I was shooting Kodacolor 400 VC.

In about half the negatives, I noticed a greenish flare, in the lower left of the frame: from the edge inwards about 1/2 inch... it is in the same place in all images where it occurs.🙁

My suspicion is that this if from stray light coming in through the red frame-counter window...

My camera is an early one, with nickel trim and an un-masked red window on the back...

I do not have an eveready case for it.

Has anyone else run into this phenomenon shooting color-film in a pre-war folder?

( I'm suspecting that when this camaera was new (early 1930's), and the only films available were slow-speed ortho or Panchromatic films, that any light sneaking in through the red window would not fog the film...😕 )

TIA...

Luddite Frank

1. Reflock the camera (around the red window, with velvet, velcro, felt, etcetera).
2. Repaint the inside of the camera with Krylon Ultraflat black.
3. Go to Office Max or Staples and either get some heavy grade red plastic file tabs or a clear red plastic binder. Cut one of those up to replace your red window.