Forgive the newbieness, please

[jwinst]

Im a new kid here, so be nice.

I have a canonet ql17 gIII which I LOVE, but am tempted to abuse a student loan before I get stuck with the bills.

I have no experience with Leica or Voigtlander stuff, other than the legend, but Id like some input on how they would compare to the canonet.

Features of the canonet I really like are:
Size, its so teeny I can take it anywhere
Silent, its my "ninja camera"
Simplicity, Im not a fan of anything automatic
Quick load thingy, Why oh Why didnt that stick
Focusing is good, but low light, or low contrast leaves something to be desired.\
Meter, ??? doesnt work, but id like one someday

Anyways, Im considering either a Bessa R2a, leica cl, or maaaaybe a non-ttl M6 .72 combined with either the voigtlander 40/1.4, 35/1.9, or the leica/rokkor 40/2.0 id like the leica 35/1.4 but thats pushing the bank a bit too far. Im trying to keep it around 1000-1200 if possible. But If its really worth it to go all the way up to the M6 Ill consider it an investment, not a rip-off.

Other than sharpness and overall image quality how does the canonet really stack up? Is the Leica's legendary silent shutter quieter than the canonet? how much louder is the R2a or CL? How noticably brighter is the rangefinder in any of the three compared to the canonet? Would I be getting myself into trouble with something older like an m3 or m4/m4-2/m4p? It would get alot of use, Im not looking for a paper weight here.

Thanks for any help you would be willing to offer.

 

[Crasis]

Im a new kid here, so be nice.

I have a canonet ql17 gIII which I LOVE, but am tempted to abuse a student loan before I get stuck with the bills.

I have no experience with Leica or Voigtlander stuff, other than the legend, but Id like some input on how they would compare to the canonet.

Features of the canonet I really like are:
Size, its so teeny I can take it anywhere
Silent, its my "ninja camera"
Simplicity, Im not a fan of anything automatic
Quick load thingy, Why oh Why didnt that stick
Focusing is good, but low light, or low contrast leaves something to be desired.\
Meter, ??? doesnt work, but id like one someday

Anyways, Im considering either a Bessa R2a, leica cl, or maaaaybe a non-ttl M6 .72 combined with either the voigtlander 40/1.4, 35/1.9, or the leica/rokkor 40/2.0 id like the leica 35/1.4 but thats pushing the bank a bit too far. Im trying to keep it around 1000-1200 if possible. But If its really worth it to go all the way up to the M6 Ill consider it an investment, not a rip-off.

Other than sharpness and overall image quality how does the canonet really stack up? Is the Leica's legendary silent shutter quieter than the canonet? how much louder is the R2a or CL? How noticably brighter is the rangefinder in any of the three compared to the canonet? Would I be getting myself into trouble with something older like an m3 or m4/m4-2/m4p? It would get alot of use, Im not looking for a paper weight here.

Thanks for any help you would be willing to offer.

Catch me half a year ago and I'd be praising the Canonet, the Minolta 7sII and a myriad of other cheap 70s rangefinders I've wasted money on. Now? Now you won't find me praising those rangefinders at all. I sing praises of Leica, Bessa, Nikon and Canon's QUALITY rangefinders. Not the cheap economy compact crap they produced back then.

A car analogy: A ****ty car will get you where you want to go, a good car will be a pleasure the whole way there.

An instrument analogy: A good quality guitar will make you want to play more than a ****ty one.

Is it that big a difference? To me it is. Imagine never doubting whether it was you that wasn't good enough to get the shot or the camera. Imagine that. The Canonet? I've seen the perfect Canonet viewfinder and shot with it. It's crap compared to a Leica or Bessa. That's just a fact. Everything seems to take more time on these cheaper cameras. Things just seem to be a bit more difficult than they should be for just taking a photo. It's not as quick to adjust shutter speed, or aperture, or whatever else.

A poor mans Leica is probably right.

Just like moonshine is a poor mans aged wine.

 

[Crasis]

Other than sharpness and overall image quality how does the canonet really stack up? Is the Leica's legendary silent shutter quieter than the canonet? how much louder is the R2a or CL? How noticably brighter is the rangefinder in any of the three compared to the canonet? Would I be getting myself into trouble with something older like an m3 or m4/m4-2/m4p? It would get alot of use, Im not looking for a paper weight here.

Thanks for any help you would be willing to offer.

To this part of your question, I own an M6 TTL. I recently acquired a Gossen Digisix light meter. I'm now looking for a Leica M2 cause I don't really need a metered body and would just like to use an older M camera.

I'm 24. I surround myself with high tech gadgets. I'm buying an M2. My girlfriend just bought an M2 with a 50mm summicron.

You wouldn't be disappointed at all. 🙂

 

[Dougg]

Hi, Jwinst; welcome to RFF! You've received a blunt and straightforward reply that I'll agree with. Actually I was going to start by saying the Canonet is a good starting point, useful to figure out if you want to get more into RF cameras or not. There are many RFF members who like and enjoy this class of camera as very affordable fun, with usually very good lenses.

One of the biggest improvements to look for beyond these is in the rangefinder itself. You'll note that on the more sophisticated interchangeable lens RF cameras that the focusing spot is not a fuzzy-outlined area at the center of the view... Instead its border is sharply defined, so that you can use it also as a split-image focusing aid. And it will stand out with more contrast from its surroundings for easier focus in difficult conditions. The viewfinder will also be brighter, with well-defined parallax-compensated framelines.

The comments about the control layout is also well-taken. I find it easier to separate the shutter speed control from the focusing and aperture when it's located on the body. Best to have controls that work smoothly but with distinct click-positions so you can work by feel.

I'd suggest you might enjoy an opportunity to handle a Leica, a modern Voigtlander Bessa, the new Zeiss Ikon RF, or even a 60s vintage Canon or Nikon RF. Check out all the details and see what you think.... Have fun!

 

[Crasis]

Hi, Jwinst; welcome to RFF! You've received a blunt and straightforward reply that I'll agree with. Actually I was going to start by saying the Canonet is a good starting point, useful to figure out if you want to get more into RF cameras or not. There are many RFF members who like and enjoy this class of camera as very affordable fun, with usually very good lenses.

Yeah, I was a bit blunt. I should point out in a more obvious fassion that I was completely satisfied with using the cheap old rangefinders until I'd actually used a decent one. At that point, I wondered how I ever got by.

To me, the difference between going from a Minolta 7sII to a Leica was astounding. It was about the same as going from the Canon Powershot Axx digital camera, to a manual focus film SLR. Absolutely astounding.

It's that old.. you don't know what you're missing out on until you try it, routine. I had no idea 🙂

 

[rover]

Other than sharpness and overall image quality how does the canonet really stack up? Is the Leica's legendary silent shutter quieter than the canonet? how much louder is the R2a or CL? How noticeably brighter is the rangefinder in any of the three compared to the canonet? Would I be getting myself into trouble with something older like an m3 or m4/m4-2/m4p? It would get a lot of use, I'm not looking for a paper weight here.

Lots of questions.

OK, first of all, are you a student, and what do you really need a camera for? I took an old SRT 101 to school with me and had fun shooting with it. In reality it was inexpensive (though I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread at the time) and I knew how to use it. Considering my behavior when I was a student, I would not today imagine that I should have had anything different. Too likely that I could have gotten it messed up in a bath of beer or something worst.

That said, a Canonet, or other fixed lens camera, is an excellent tool. Yes, a Bessa or other new RF will have a bigger and brighter viewfinder, but do you need that? If you have a good Canonet, that exposes well, handles well..... it is the photographer not the camera that makes the difference.

Now, when I was 24 like Crasis, I was out of school, I subscribed to Pop Photo, shopped around and the #1 thing I wanted was a Leica (#2 was a Hasselblad). I ended up getting a Canon EOS, which I really always kept looking back on thinking I should have gotten the Leica as Crasis has. But I put a lot, a very lot of film though that EOS.

Your time will come, choose wise young man, you will know when it is best to get a new camera, enjoy it when you do.

That sounds too fatherly, sorry.

 

[Magus]

Post deleted by posters request

 

[Andy Aitken]

I'd say, as you're a student, don't break the bank right now. Go for a user CL with a 40mm Summicron. You then have a nice little camera a bit like the one you're used to and a great lens. Then, when you can better afford it get yourself an M6 body which will still work very well with the 40mm 'cron (with a tiny DIY modification) and you'll have the start of a great Leica system. Add a 28mm and a 90mm or whatever you fancy after that but don't ever, ever part with the 40mm...

Good luck.

 

[Skinny McGee]

Leica M3 and a digiflash or digisix... I have the digiflash and love it.. You can use it for potrait work with Studio flashes.

 

[adayoncedawned]

I'm another guy that got into rangefinders via the cheap route. Yashica Lynx 14E and a Minolta 7SII (basically identical to the ql17).

Just a couple brief notes to add since you've got some good replies already.

-loading an m6 is not a hassle once you've done a few rolls
-since you're used to the shutter on the canonet, you probably won't be impressed by the leica shutter. honestly i think the canonet shutter is ever so slightly quiter than a leica but it's a different pitch, which may or may not be more noticeable.

the difference from one of those old viewfinders to a voigtlander or leica viewfinder however is like night and day. focusing in low light is way, way easier, not to mention much more accurate. also, don't be afraid of a 35/2... i do a lot of low light myself so i used the 1.4 and 1.7 varieties a lot before i ended up with my summicron. i remember having this terrible feeling before i got it that it wouldn't be enough, since i was used to the extra stop... but i guess around the same time i got into pushing 400 +2 and i also found that a bigger solid body as well as a soft release allowed me to go longer exposures that i just was never comfortable with on an slr.

well that got a lot longer than i thought it would.

anyway, i might have given you bad/irrelevant advice given your available resources, but its food for thought for the future at least. for your budget an r3a/40 nokton is a pretty solid value. if you can at all, try out one of the bessas though. i used an r3a for a while and after the 7sii the shutter sounded like a guillotine chopping my own head off every time i made a candid shot. it's less noticeable than an slr, but very highpitched and abrasive sounding.

if you get an m2/m3 (which is really smart actually, since you're used to shooting without a meter) get a gossen digisix or a sekonic 308. more accurate than camera meters anyway.

sorry for going on... i guess you're at a point which i was at almost exactly some time ago so it's difficult to not share my mind a bit. als its 430 am and i'm a bit loopy because i havent slept yet so i neglected to type properly or organize anything coherently. sorry about that.

ask more questions if you have them. there's lots of smart people here that probably have a lot to say about getting started with rangefinders. oh, wait, is this rangefinderforum.com? haha.

 

[Sparrow]

Im a new kid here, so be nice.

I have a canonet ql17 gIII which I LOVE, but am tempted to abuse a student loan before I get stuck with the bills.

I have no experience with Leica or Voigtlander stuff, other than the

BIG CLIP

Thanks for any help you would be willing to offer.

Hi ?? probably not what you want to know but you’re not going to see a great difference between the canonet and all the debt inducing kit that’s been mentioned unless you are doing your own developing and printing, the lens and camera are only part of the story.

Secondly, the student lone system, in the UK, is an insidious way to fund higher education, tread carefully.

Finally, Rover’s post while of the minority opinion is probably worth reading twice.
Welcome to the forum, sorry for the “uncle chat”

 

[marcust101]

Go for a user M2/3 and a 50mm lens, using a small light meter (digisix/flash) will quickly become second nature. There are a few in the classifieds if you search for them. You can probably get the pair for 500 - 700 euro

my 2 cents

 

[rover]

Hi ?? probably not what you want to know but you’re not going to see a great difference between the canonet and all the debt inducing kit that’s been mentioned unless you are doing your own developing and printing, the lens and camera are only part of the story.

Secondly, the student lone system, in the UK, is an insidious way to fund higher education, tread carefully.

Finally, Rover’s post while of the minority opinion is probably worth reading twice.
Welcome to the forum, sorry for the “uncle chat”

Us older guys have to stick together!!!🙂

 

[Sparrow]

Ya.. but don’t we sound…….well sensible,
he’ll never buy it

 

[Kin Lau]

The compact 70's RF's weren't that bad, but many have been abused or not in the best of shape. Like any 30 year old camera, a CLA can make a world of difference.

Otherwise, almost all of the 70's leaf shutter RF's are quieter than a Leica.

 

[ghost]

Ya.. but don’t we sound…….well sensible,
he’ll never buy it

lol, that's what i was thinking.

 

[Crasis]

Now, when I was 24 like Crasis, I was out of school, I subscribed to Pop Photo, shopped around and the #1 thing I wanted was a Leica (#2 was a Hasselblad). I ended up getting a Canon EOS, which I really always kept looking back on thinking I should have gotten the Leica as Crasis has. But I put a lot, a very lot of film though that EOS.

Off topic, but I'm still in school. Graduate school to be exact. Slave labour for professors 😱

 

[Stu :)]

Secondly, the student lone system, in the UK, is an insidious way to fund higher education, tread carefully.

Sorry to burst your bubble but I second Sparrow and Rover. Down here in New Zealand the student loan system is an all new kind of evil. Believe me as I have one. Depending on your course of study, you may need those funds for other Needs during the year, rather than Wants now. I studied photography and kept my $1000 cost related costs loan for Paper, Film, E-6 processing, large LED prints, framing, gear rentals, etc. I fondly remember getting the evil-eye from fellow class members as teaching staff hoed into them other the cheapness of their final result for mid and end of year assignments and their cries of no money. Yet I used mine wisely and had half a wall covered in beautiful 20x16s.

I too didn't get my first Leica until I finished university and found employment, looking back I think the Leica would have been a hindrance rather than a blessing. I remember one field trip to a west coast beach and foul weather we had, 90% of the class where hiding inside while the rest of us braved the swirling clouds of salt water and sand with our 'cheap' cameras, in my case a Canonet and Lubitel. I got several very good shots that day, but if I had a Leica then, I would have been inside with everyone else, cradling my beloved Leica from the elements.
Now I will admit when I started in my second year I had a Hasselblad, but I paid that b*stard off in my first year, I had to cut back on the drinking, smoking and other student malarkey that costs $, but I got it and I shot like hell with it.

I'm 30 in less than two months time... 😱
...I have two Leica's, my original Hasselblad, one large format camera, Polaroid 195, countless other cameras and 18 QL17 Canonets. Yep, that's right and trust me they are a fantastic camera.
However if you really do believe you've come to the end of your creative ability with the Canonet, get a Voigtlander Bessa R. Why? They are inexpensive, reliable, wide choice of lenses and the screw mount will teach you HOW to use a camera with interchangeable lenses. Also you'll still have $$$ to spend on your Needs!

Stu 🙂

P.S. I still kick myself for selling my Bessa R.

 

[rover]

Ya.. but don’t we sound…….well sensible,
he’ll never buy it

Sad really, I much prefer to be irresponsible, spontaneous, and well, happy.

 

[venchka]

Practice...practice...practice

Practice...practice...practice

A bit of background: My second camera, after a Brownie Hawkeye which I still have, was a Canonet 2.8. I shot nothing but Kodachrome II with that camera. I still have the slides and some are the best photographs I've ever made. Alas, I traded it for an SLR and I've regretted it ever since. I then traded the SLR for a Canon IV-S2 and Canon 50/1.8 lens. I was back on the right track. I sold that combination too. Big mistake. Fast forward an eon or two. I recently bought a Leica body & two lenses. Heaven! My only regret was not buying the Leica gear back in the Dark Ages. However, if I had, I probably would have ended up selling the Leica gear for other, more frivilous things like groceries or my daughter's education.

It does sound like your Canonet is in need of repair. It's probably far less expensive to find another one in much better shape. Do that and you'll be set for awhile. Maybe a good while. If/when the time is right to move up, you may also find yourself holding onto the Canonet. There are times when it will be the perfect tool for the occasion. You have a lot to learn and the Canonet is a perfect learning tool. Get a good hand meter. The Weston Master V will teach you a lot about exposure.

Never never ever ever pick up any Leica, Canon, Nikon, Voigtlander or Zeiss RF camera and use it until you are prepared to own one. The rangefinder/viewfinders are addictive and habit forming.

Use what you have until you know what you need.