FSU NOOB Question #2

[dazedgonebye]

Thanks for your indulgence....

LTM vs Contax.

The Kievs seem less popular than the Zorki/Fed/others. Is this perhaps because of a smaller selection of lenses?

In general, what advantages does one line offer over the other.

Thanks again guys.

 

[garythegit]

Hmmm well I don't know about he popularity thing but I can give you my personal opinions on them as I own FEDs, Zorkis, and Kievs

LTM: Tend to be smaller, especially the earlier models (dream cam: Fed 1 + Collapsable I22 😉 )
Rangefinder easy to adjust if misaligned
Problems- shutter curtain light leak, shutter capping due to uneven shutter tension, difficult to do.
Rangefinder base usually quite narrow unless it's the FED2 or the Zorki 5/6 models
Lenses- if one is out of focus you will need to take the whole thing apart etc

Kievs: Tend to be bigger but feels more solidly built
Lens focusing done on body, so if that's ok then your lenses should all be fine as there isn't any focusing helicals on the lenses
Shutter is strong contax 'metal garage door' type, if you get one that's working then you probably won't have to worry much. It's also most definately light proof 🙂
Rangefinder base so long that you have to use a whole different grip in order to focus! (Contax grip) It is highly, highly accurate! Great for last lenses such as the 1.8 Helios 103
Problems- the rangefinder is almost impossible to adjust without taking the entire rangefinder unit out 🙁 highly intrusive surgery...
The contax grip could take some getting used to

 

[dazedgonebye]

Thanks Gary,

I need to get some examples in my hands.

BTW, Sunny Scottland?
I was in Scottland for both sunny days in 1984. Very nice.

 

[rbiemer]

Steve,
Dunno about popularity but I have and use both LTM/Kiev mount cameras.
The relatively smaller choice in Kiev/Contax mount lenses is probably an advantage( I think it helps to know a tool well to use it well) but I do like the amazing variety of lenses I can use on the LTM cameras.
The othe thing that occurs to me: with the Kiev cameras, there are many fewer different types(in general I mean, folks): metered or not are the two basic choices. The deiiferences are/were developmental, I think. In other words, once you've used a Kiev2 or 3 or 4, the others you get will be pretty familiar to you. (The Kiev 5 is a little different mainly because of the wind lever and rewind crank placement) The speeds are mostly the same--though the 1/1250 was eliminated on the later cameras leaving the 1/1000 as the top speed.
With the LTM cameras, probably due to the huge numer of cameras produced and the long production(70 years?) there are lots of variants in almost all the different aspects of camera design. I think there are 11 recognized different types of the FED2 for one example. They are all an answer to the basic question of what is a camera but I find some "answers" more usefull to me than others.
What I found helpful in choosing FSU cameras was to decide what features I "wanted" and what features I "needed" and then see which cameras had the best combination of those two lists.
I then spent alot of time looking at Nathan Dayton's web site while I waited for my copy of Princelle's book. Neither are perfect but both are pretty good(and potentially GAS inducing. BEWARE!)
Nathatn's site is:http://www.commiecameras.com/.
I think the single biggest dis-advantage of using the FSU cameras its that most of us can't gointo a shop and fondle them before we buy. That is partially off set by the relatively inexpensive costs.
Rob

 

[fidget]

Steve, there's no doubt that you will soon have an example of both.
I also run LTM and Kiev and wouldn't like to do without either. I like the Kiev for the J8 lens, it's got click stop aperture settings, and it will take the Helios 103. (see nearby threads). If you like to tinker with your inexpensive cams during long winter nights with the hood up, the Kiev will present many hours of entertainment.
Dave..

 

[dazedgonebye]

I'm not much for tinkering. Perhaps it's the lack of long Winter nights here in Arizona.
I know that doesn't bode well for any forays into the FSU world.
I may end up just shooting more with my new werramatic. It's just that the idea of more lenses to choose from has ahold of me. Just looking for GAS I guess.

 

[fidget]

Aw Steve, I feel guilty now. My comment re getting under the hood was sort of tongue-in-cheek, there's not many wanting to get in there. Don't let that put you off a Kiev, they are quite different. The FED & Zorki are much simpler and can be quite easy to adjust and service, but better to get one that doesn't need any attention.
Now, go get one (of each), you deserve the GAS!

Dave..

 

[vrgard]

I'm not much for tinkering. Perhaps it's the lack of long Winter nights here in Arizona.
I know that doesn't bode well for any forays into the FSU world.
I may end up just shooting more with my new werramatic. It's just that the idea of more lenses to choose from has ahold of me. Just looking for GAS I guess.

Don't worry too much about it, Steve. I have two Kiev cameras and have never been "under the hood" of either. I, too, was concerned after reading all the discussions about repairs, light leaks, etc., and have not had to deal with any of that. Just be careful/picky about what you buy, where you buy and from whom you buy and you'll probably be fine.

-Randy

 

[John Bailey]

Fed 3b
pro - fixed take up spool,
- fast lever film advance and shutter tensioning
con - tricky to set shutter speeds (broke mine by forcing shutter speed dial the wrong way)
- noisy shutter

Kiev 4a/am
pro - bayonet lens mount may result in faster lens changes
- quiet shutter
con - knob wind for film advance - not easy for me, firm grip needed
and awkward wrist action needed to tension shutter
- loose take up spool

 

[ZorkiKat]

FED and Zorki are more simple

FED and Zorki are more simple

Thanks for your indulgence....

LTM vs Contax.

The Kievs seem less popular than the Zorki/Fed/others. Is this perhaps because of a smaller selection of lenses?

In general, what advantages does one line offer over the other.

Thanks again guys.

FED and Zorki were less complicated machines with less parts and actions to do the job of focusing and shutter movement. Less parts mean less trouble. Less actions mean simpler mechanics. Simpler mechanics mean simpler repairs.

I have a few Kiev, but got plenty of FED and Zorki (about 70 at the last count😀). I also work faster with FED and Zorki, favouring the Leica II derived FED-1 and Zorki-1.

My main issue with the Kiev is its shutter. Though its made of metal, the ribbons which pull it around are as fragile as the fabric materials used in a FED or Zorki shutter. IMO, a silk ribbon 3mm wide and about 0,5mm thick won't live too long when its forced through needle-eye like slots and rubbed along metal slats. Replacement material for this ribbon isn't easy to get and it's almost impossible to find a non-factory substitute which will work.

The elegant Leica-derived shutter of the FED or Zorki on the other hand does break and perforate, dry and crack, peel and fall off. But almost any shutter cloth which can be cut to the original's size can be used and get the shutter working again.

Jay

 

[rolleistef]

Zorki : the zorki 4 VF is very bright, with diopter adjustement, and huuuge, so huge that it rather covers a 35mm frame. Focusing is fast and easy. But you need to be careful not breaking the shutter by changing the speeds before, but you get used to it very quickly. Also, the shutter is quite noisy, thou not as much as for a SLR.
And you can get nice, cheap lenses from 28 (hm... did somedy say "orion"??) to 135. Above is no use having a rf camera.

The Kiev : it is a completely different philosophy.
as somebody said before, it has the longest rf base ever (along w/ the contax II-III of course). The holding is not really a problem, even more you're much steadier.
The shutter is very quiet, incredibly solid and hard to repair (never tried on mine)
You need to select the expsure first, but it does not break the shutter if you don't.
Focusing is a bit slower, and the vf is very dim if you've tried a Zorki before. If not it seems to be all right 😀
And contrarely to what was said before, small adjustement of the RF is very easy, just need a pair of screwdriver, a tripod and scotchtape for that. See the Kiev Survival site.

In a nutshell : Zorkis are smaller and more user friendly, they are basically Leica copies (in spite of their appearance from the Z4), but Kiev are really quiet and funny to use. It's an ideal camera for a concert use. And above all, you can use it as a defensive weapon whithout to much harm. For the camera, not for the poor guy you'd have hit with it!!

 

[dazedgonebye]

Thanks guys, for all the input. I've been lurking around on and off, trying to pick this stuff up. But, some of it is so fundamental that nobody that knows anything talks about it.
I'm going to go shoot that Werra with the cardinal 100mm this weekend and see if I'll be happy with that. The first few shots were disapointing, but might have been technique. After that, I'll decide on a FSU camera. Really, at these prices, I can't go wrong trying one. Except of course with my usual luck of getting lemons that no one will pay to take off my hands.

 

[garythegit]

Steve, hence 'Sunny Scotland' is followed by the sarcasm suffix '(!)' 😀 It's pissing it down outside and I probably won't see the sun again until June...

Funny thing with my 4AM, it has a fixed take up spool. Hmm.. maybe it's a late model.

 

[vanyagor]

I'd like to add that it looks like lenses for Kievs are cheaper than same ones for fed (at least that's how it looks to me).

Can someone more experienced confirm that?

 

[vanyagor]

And btw, what does GAS mean? 🙂

 

[ZorkiKat]

I'd like to add that it looks like lenses for Kievs are cheaper than same ones for fed (at least that's how it looks to me).

Can someone more experienced confirm that?

Jupiter-12(35mm) and Jupiter-9(85mm), as well as the 50mm Jupiter-8 tend to cost less than their LTM versions in the current auctions. The most probable reason is that there is more demand for the LTM mount Jupiters. The LTM lenses are sought not only by those who use FED or Zorki cameras, but those with LTM Leica, Canon, or similar cameras as well.

The Kiev mount Jupiters on the other hand can only be used on Kiev and original Contax cameras. The Jupiter-12 for instance, cannot be used on the
post-war Contax (west) cameras. The J-9, J-8, and J-3, however, can be used on these.

Some Kiev-mount lenses are as, or even more expensive than the FED LTM versions. Compare the cost of a Kiev mount J-3 (50mm/1,5) with its LTM counterpart.

Jay

 

[johne]

vanyagor:

GAS is "gear acquisition syndrome" a most infectious disease that mostly affects iconoclastic clients who ignore digital [ and even SLR's! ]
johne

 

[brachal]

If you're in the US, it's hard to go wrong buying from Yuri at fedka.com. His prices are higher than ebay, but what you get will perform as advertised 99% of the time. I did have a kiev 4am from fedka break the week I got it, and he had a replacement on my doorstep within a week.