Getting back into Leica - M10 or M240 or something else...?
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rich_
Established
I would save for the M10 if i was in a position to choose now. I enjoyed the m240 for a few years when they came out but always felt a bit compromised with the size and output when comparing to the m9 and later the m10.
I haven’t used one since I sold mine in 2016, but presume the screen and operation is getting on a bit now when comparing to more modern cameras.
I haven’t used one since I sold mine in 2016, but presume the screen and operation is getting on a bit now when comparing to more modern cameras.
Freakscene
Obscure member
Having used one of these, I got my lenses coded by Leica because the pen marks always wear off, or don't work to start with. Just frustrating.
Yokosuka Mike
Abstract Clarity
Hello mrtoml!
Celebrating ones retirement is a wonderful thing. I've done it twice. The first time when I retired from the military, the second time when I retired for good; as in "I ain't gonna work no more". I have retirement gifts I've given myself... watches, vacations, expensive whisky, and I also thought about (on several whisky fueled moments) buying a Leica M-whatever to celebrate myself!
My advice to you, and please (really please) feel free to ignore it... don't buy a Leica camera to celebrate your retirement.
Take the money and go on a trip to some exotic place (or not so exotic place) and use your existing gear to take pictures of your travels. I know you have some really nice stuff already... put it to good use.
Anyway, that's my opinion & advice.
All the best,
Mike
MarkWalberg
Established
Mike says, "I've done it twice"
Reminds me of a friend who said, "They have a retirement party for me every year."
This thread is a great discussion and very helpful to anyone looking at these cameras.
RF is a great place where questions like this get taken seriously.
Reminds me of a friend who said, "They have a retirement party for me every year."
This thread is a great discussion and very helpful to anyone looking at these cameras.
RF is a great place where questions like this get taken seriously.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
Bodies: The M-P 240 baseplate is 2mm larger in the fore-aft direction than the M10-M/-R baseplate. Some of the protuberances on the M 240 body stick out farther than on the M10, that accounts the reported "8mm" thicker difference. The M240 and M10 differ in where you hold them by about 2mm in thickness. It's noticeable, but it's really not that much.
I've had M9, M-P 240, M-D 262, and now M10-R and M10-M. All feel pretty similar to me, in my hands and at my eye. The M9, bought new, went back for a sensor cleaning which turned out to be corrosion on the sensor ... I traded it up for the M-P 240. I bought the M-D 262 while I had the M-P 240 and just liked it more, so sold the M-P 240. I stopped using the M-D 262 after a time when I found the CL suited me better. Things change over time ... my eyes changed slowly over that five years and I found the EVF difficult to use in sunlit conditions. So I bought the M10-M to get the RF and liked it so much I sold the CL and bought the M10-R for my color camera.
Which one to buy? Well, unless you handle your camera like a basketball, you shouldn't need a rangefinder collimate and calibrate more than once in the lifetime of a camera. Buy three batteries when you get the camera, mark them 1, 2, 3 and use them in rotation ... they'll last for longer than you care to use the camera. The 40 Mpixel sensors in the M10-M/-R are a bit different than the 240/262 and M10/24Mpixel generation sensors in DR and noise, but beyond that, unless you're buying two cameras, you just get used to whatever the controls are and feel it, and enjoy it.
Go handle a camera or two and go with what your fingers and your gut tells you. 🙂
Lenses ... I use good lenses from Leica and Voigtländer that are properly rangefinder coupled for most of my shooting. Obviously, the Voigtländer lenses are far less expensive, and they're very good on imaging too. I had the Color-Skopar 28mm f/3.5 which worked beautifully on the CL and on my M4-2 film body, but it doesn't work all that well on the M10s so I bought a Summicron-M 28/2 ASPH at a reasonable price. The Summarit-M 75/2.4 works well, my old M-Rokkor 90/4 (same lens as the Elmar-C 90/4) works well too. Both reasonably inexpensive, although the latest Voigtländer 90/2.8 seems really good too, and is cheaper. Most 50mm lenses are going to be pretty darn good, picking which to suit you is more a matter of which taste you prefer. I have both Summicron-M 50/2 (current series) and Color-Skopar 50/2.5 (LTM with adapter) and both work beautifully; the Color-Skopar new was less than half the cost of the used Summicron. You pays your money and takes your choices..
I also have a few Leica R lenses (bought pretty cheaply when Leica discontinued the R system) to do long tele, table top, and macro work, and the Visoflex 020 to work with them. The M10 is better at being a pseudo "mirrorless" camera than the M240, but it depends how much you end up using such adaptations. I have also adapted Nikon F mount lenses (28/2, 55 Micro, Sigma 600/8 mirror) with good results. But I'd not depend on adapted lenses with an M, it's just too clumsy for a daily shooter using adapted lenses. Better to stick with M-mount lenses unless you're doing a lot of edge cases.
G
I've had M9, M-P 240, M-D 262, and now M10-R and M10-M. All feel pretty similar to me, in my hands and at my eye. The M9, bought new, went back for a sensor cleaning which turned out to be corrosion on the sensor ... I traded it up for the M-P 240. I bought the M-D 262 while I had the M-P 240 and just liked it more, so sold the M-P 240. I stopped using the M-D 262 after a time when I found the CL suited me better. Things change over time ... my eyes changed slowly over that five years and I found the EVF difficult to use in sunlit conditions. So I bought the M10-M to get the RF and liked it so much I sold the CL and bought the M10-R for my color camera.
Which one to buy? Well, unless you handle your camera like a basketball, you shouldn't need a rangefinder collimate and calibrate more than once in the lifetime of a camera. Buy three batteries when you get the camera, mark them 1, 2, 3 and use them in rotation ... they'll last for longer than you care to use the camera. The 40 Mpixel sensors in the M10-M/-R are a bit different than the 240/262 and M10/24Mpixel generation sensors in DR and noise, but beyond that, unless you're buying two cameras, you just get used to whatever the controls are and feel it, and enjoy it.
Go handle a camera or two and go with what your fingers and your gut tells you. 🙂
Lenses ... I use good lenses from Leica and Voigtländer that are properly rangefinder coupled for most of my shooting. Obviously, the Voigtländer lenses are far less expensive, and they're very good on imaging too. I had the Color-Skopar 28mm f/3.5 which worked beautifully on the CL and on my M4-2 film body, but it doesn't work all that well on the M10s so I bought a Summicron-M 28/2 ASPH at a reasonable price. The Summarit-M 75/2.4 works well, my old M-Rokkor 90/4 (same lens as the Elmar-C 90/4) works well too. Both reasonably inexpensive, although the latest Voigtländer 90/2.8 seems really good too, and is cheaper. Most 50mm lenses are going to be pretty darn good, picking which to suit you is more a matter of which taste you prefer. I have both Summicron-M 50/2 (current series) and Color-Skopar 50/2.5 (LTM with adapter) and both work beautifully; the Color-Skopar new was less than half the cost of the used Summicron. You pays your money and takes your choices..
I also have a few Leica R lenses (bought pretty cheaply when Leica discontinued the R system) to do long tele, table top, and macro work, and the Visoflex 020 to work with them. The M10 is better at being a pseudo "mirrorless" camera than the M240, but it depends how much you end up using such adaptations. I have also adapted Nikon F mount lenses (28/2, 55 Micro, Sigma 600/8 mirror) with good results. But I'd not depend on adapted lenses with an M, it's just too clumsy for a daily shooter using adapted lenses. Better to stick with M-mount lenses unless you're doing a lot of edge cases.
G
cboy
Well-known
2c..
Perhaps save on the body and put it into lenses. The only significant difference is the one stop iso gain with the M10, everything else is haptics which is not noticeable when most ppl add a case to their M. Perhaps a minty M-p?
Add a 1.25 or 1.4x magnifier to help improve RF focusing on aging eyes.
If you are concerned about the ISO deficiency let me tell you that's easily corrected in post if you use third party Denoise programs such Topaz Denoise or DXO PURE RAW 3, which will gain back a stop
Adapting non M lenses is cumbersome since the unit becomes unbalanced. If you want to adapt then it's better to look into the SL2s which is more suited to adapt glass imo and for aging eyes. The EVF on any M doesn't cut it against modern evfs on the market.
All the best. Perhaps rent out an M and see it suits you first before plunging in? If you really want to emerse yourself to the rangefinder experience the the m10d or mono will be better. Ahh down the rabbit hole...
PS. I found it so weird when ppl complain how large (2mm?) the m240 is compared to the m10 but when they do inevitably get a M10 they add a grip. WTF...
Perhaps save on the body and put it into lenses. The only significant difference is the one stop iso gain with the M10, everything else is haptics which is not noticeable when most ppl add a case to their M. Perhaps a minty M-p?
Add a 1.25 or 1.4x magnifier to help improve RF focusing on aging eyes.
If you are concerned about the ISO deficiency let me tell you that's easily corrected in post if you use third party Denoise programs such Topaz Denoise or DXO PURE RAW 3, which will gain back a stop
Adapting non M lenses is cumbersome since the unit becomes unbalanced. If you want to adapt then it's better to look into the SL2s which is more suited to adapt glass imo and for aging eyes. The EVF on any M doesn't cut it against modern evfs on the market.
All the best. Perhaps rent out an M and see it suits you first before plunging in? If you really want to emerse yourself to the rangefinder experience the the m10d or mono will be better. Ahh down the rabbit hole...
PS. I found it so weird when ppl complain how large (2mm?) the m240 is compared to the m10 but when they do inevitably get a M10 they add a grip. WTF...
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Ronald M
Veteran
shopping used means budget. To do digital properly a good monitor is required, programs. and reasonably strong computer. Good monitors + calibration software cost as much as your camera budget.
Eizo and the other brand sold at B&H are good. Those in iMac or those used for checking e mail are not adequate.
OTH having immediate access to photos is fun. But you can buy a lot of film for the money. Shoot some film and scan with digital Nikon and load into computer. Nikon Z6 is vert favorable to Leica M10 and are now on sale or just buy a film scanner.
Eizo and the other brand sold at B&H are good. Those in iMac or those used for checking e mail are not adequate.
OTH having immediate access to photos is fun. But you can buy a lot of film for the money. Shoot some film and scan with digital Nikon and load into computer. Nikon Z6 is vert favorable to Leica M10 and are now on sale or just buy a film scanner.
lukitas
second hand noob
I scrimped and saved for three years to get me a second-and M-10P. I don't think I would have been as much in love with the typ 240. I mostly used it with the Voigtländer nokton 50 asph. Lovely lens, nice bokeh. But I still scrimped and saved to obtain a lightly dinged Summilux 50 asph, and that gives me all I ever dreamed of. Happy with the results, happy with the haptics.
To be fair, the nokton is more than good enough. And I am sure my appreciation of the summilux is greatly influenced by brand name and value. But I still think it was worth it.
As for the rf alignment, I am not too bothered anymore. I tumbled over my bicycle once, wearing the camera 'en baundoullière'. A scratch or two, everything else A-OK. I think I've read somewhere that the M10 rangefinders are more robust than the previous digital M's.
't Were me, I 'd get whichever m10, slap a cheap lens on it, and then save and wait and save till you find something special at a decent price.
Good luck, have fun shooting photos.
To be fair, the nokton is more than good enough. And I am sure my appreciation of the summilux is greatly influenced by brand name and value. But I still think it was worth it.
As for the rf alignment, I am not too bothered anymore. I tumbled over my bicycle once, wearing the camera 'en baundoullière'. A scratch or two, everything else A-OK. I think I've read somewhere that the M10 rangefinders are more robust than the previous digital M's.
't Were me, I 'd get whichever m10, slap a cheap lens on it, and then save and wait and save till you find something special at a decent price.
Good luck, have fun shooting photos.
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MarkWalberg
Established
Ronald said, "....But you can buy a lot of film for the money. Shoot some film and scan with digital Nikon and load into computer. Nikon Z6 is very favorable to Leica M10 and are now on sale or just buy a film scanner."
This is what I did. I plan on scanning my old negs over the next few years with the Z. In the meantime, I found that I can put essentially any lens onto the Z6 with the right adapter. I'm having more fun photographing than I've had in many years by using all my old rangefinder lenses on the Z6, which was less than $1000 from NikonUsa as a refurb (like new though) last November. I have and use film using M cameras (M3, M5 and M6), but no digital. With the Z in hand, I see no need at all to buy a digital Leica. However, since I've never used a digital Leica, the great advice of the others here is likely a better source.
This is what I did. I plan on scanning my old negs over the next few years with the Z. In the meantime, I found that I can put essentially any lens onto the Z6 with the right adapter. I'm having more fun photographing than I've had in many years by using all my old rangefinder lenses on the Z6, which was less than $1000 from NikonUsa as a refurb (like new though) last November. I have and use film using M cameras (M3, M5 and M6), but no digital. With the Z in hand, I see no need at all to buy a digital Leica. However, since I've never used a digital Leica, the great advice of the others here is likely a better source.
WJJ3
Well-known
KoFe, FWIW, when I had my M9 sensor cleaned at Leica in Tokyo in December, they said they can still service anything in the camera but the sensor.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
They don't change sensors anymore and I read somewhere they don't have main board anymore.
Archiver
Veteran
I have no experience with the M240 or M10 so I can't comment there.
If you want 28, 50 and 90, the Zeiss and Voigtlander versions will give you a lot of bang for your buck, especially if you purchase secondhand.
The latest Voigtlander 28mm f2 has super reviews and is optimized for digital sensors. The Zeiss 28mm Biogon is a wonderful lens, but mine and many others suffer from dreadful dry focus ring and lens wobble, so it is difficult to recommend it. Instead of a 90, consider the awesome Voigtlander 75mm f1.5.
mrtoml
Mancunian
Thanks for all the great advice on this thread. RFFers are a great source of inspiration and knowledge.
mrtoml
Mancunian
Thanks, Mike. I hear what you are saying.
I am also planning on several trips, but I am planning another thread on that topic 🙂
wlewisiii
Veteran
Part of the reason I reposted that pic of my EDC was to show off my three favs for those focal lengths. Though in 50 there are some serious other contenders (Canon 50/1.4, Nikon SC 50/2, Voigtlander Nokton 50/1.5 Asph, Elmar 50/2.8, perhaps someday a Summicron rigid or Zeiss Planar 😉 )
mrtoml
Mancunian
I am thinking at the moment of Voigtlander 28 ultron, planar 50 and maybe elmarit or summarit 90.
cboy
Well-known
Can you replace other camera brand sensors after 10 or so years? At least Leica has after market options
James24
Well-known
I would go for M10 (£3500) with used 50mm f2.5 Summarit (c£800) to start with.
Add 90mm Summarit and 28 Elmarit gradually as funds permit.
Add 90mm Summarit and 28 Elmarit gradually as funds permit.
pgk
Well-known
I remember that the Fuji S2Pro had sensor overheating issues and the sensors apparently delaminated as a result. Fuji would replace the sensor but it became uneconomic to do so because the cost of doing so exceeded te resale value of the camera. The Leica M9 still has a good resale vale but no replacement sensors and as its old in sensor terms there are no solutions. I still have and use my 2 x M9s and will do so until they are unusable. I've had my moneysworth out of them and whilst my wife still has contemporary Canon bodies which were similarly expensive when new, they are now worth a small fraction of what the M9s go for. I'd happliy buy another low mileage M9 if one of mine died, but it would probably make better economic sense to add a bit more and buy a much newer model like a clean M10. Life is about compromises I suppose.
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