Grabbing a shot in a church

[johnnyrod]

I have a good friend's christening coming up in September (well, their baby anyway). This is at an old church in their village. I expect once the bub is dipped then we should all have a quick chance to grab a photo of the happy family, and I would really like to get a good one. I'm not sure how good the light will be though and am after a few flash tips to make a good pic rather than a flat one, and as my technical skills are work in progress. some advice would be appreciated.

The kit I have is an old folding Mess Ikonta 120 rollfilm camera with Portra 400ISO colour negative film. I also have two flashes I can use, a Cobra AB210 (GN 21m on highest setting) and Pentax AF280 (GN 28m on highest). Neither can be set manually to different levels but they both have auto settings via ISO controls and high and low power settings, plus manual settings.

Here are a couple of pictures of the inside of the church - normally it is the more familiar rows of pews though:
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/images/buildings/en/197/197006-19726-800.jpg

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1587500

I'm not sure if additional lighting has been used in either, or where the pic will be take for that matter!

So, I can stick the Cobra on top of the camera, set it to auto, set the aperture and just take a pic, or are there better things I could do? I've never tried off-camera flash but I'll really only have a short time to take any pictures in this instance, a bit Weegee. For interest, with more time, what would be a good approach?

 

[Bill Clark]

Hire a pro who has photographd in the church before and you follow along.

Enjoy and have fun!

 

[sleepyhead]

I don't know what it's like in the UK, but here in Denmark (at least at the christenings that I've been to), ANY photography (let alone with flash) is discouraged so as not to disturb the sanctity of the proceedings. I have manged to get away with a few frames using quiet cameras and the available light.

I'd also be concerned that (a) flash photography may disturb the baby who already may be a bit freaked out by the experience, and (b) that direct flash (bouncing is not an option in a high-ceiling church) will give harsh, un-natural looking results.

I see in your signature that you have a Pentax with a fast f/1.2 lens. Have you considered using that with ISO 400 film and no flash?

Good luck, and have fun in any case!

I have a good friend's christening coming up in September (well, their baby anyway). This is at an old church in their village. I expect once the bub is dipped then we should all have a quick chance to grab a photo of the happy family, and I would really like to get a good one. I'm not sure how good the light will be though and am after a few flash tips to make a good pic rather than a flat one, and as my technical skills are work in progress. some advice would be appreciated.

The kit I have is an old folding Mess Ikonta 120 rollfilm camera with Portra 400ISO colour negative film. I also have two flashes I can use, a Cobra AB210 (GN 21m on highest setting) and Pentax AF280 (GN 28m on highest). Neither can be set manually to different levels but they both have auto settings via ISO controls and high and low power settings, plus manual settings.

Here are a couple of pictures of the inside of the church - normally it is the more familiar rows of pews though:
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/images/buildings/en/197/197006-19726-800.jpg

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1587500

I'm not sure if additional lighting has been used in either, or where the pic will be take for that matter!

So, I can stick the Cobra on top of the camera, set it to auto, set the aperture and just take a pic, or are there better things I could do? I've never tried off-camera flash but I'll really only have a short time to take any pictures in this instance, a bit Weegee. For interest, with more time, what would be a good approach?

 

[daveleo]

Discuss this with the pastor, priest, rabbi, minister or whomever.
Most often (around here) they will tell you a very strong "no flash during the ceremony" and often do not want photographers elbowing their way into the ceremony (flash or not).
Use whatever camera you are comfortable with, but my personal advice is to forget the flash (for esthetic reasons), but that's your call.

 

[johnnyrod]

Britain is not a very strict country any more in terms of respect for religion, to be honest. At most ceremonies there will be a rule of no pictures until the allotted time, so typically they will have the ceremony the either just before or at the end, people will be invited to take a picture, at least it keeps a lid on things in this day and age where people seem to look at the world through the screen of a camera or phone. Maybe this sounds a bit ironic given my original question of how best to get this shot! If a suitable opportunity doesn't present itself then I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, I'll catch them outside or something.

Ceiling too high to bounce, indeed - I hadn't really thought about flash on a baby though (around 5 months old) but it is a good point. The f1.2 lens needs fixing, I could use it fully open but it doesn't stop down properly so I can't yet trust it at anything else. It's a thought though. I was hoping to use the Ikonta.

Daveleo - do you mean because (as sleepyhead says) I would really only be able to use direct flash? Maybe I'm too worried about underexposing indoors.

 

[daveleo]

^ Yes, I am imagining you would like a soft or pleasant ambient light image, and on-camera flash (unless it's nicely diffused and balanced with the ambient light) is harsh. If you can get it to work, then okay, but I know that I would not get it right.

 

[Tejasican]

Talking to the priest is a good move. It would be quite surprising if flash was allowed at all so a fast lens is good.

Events such as these are important in the lives of families and priests should, but do not always, allow opportunity for pictures as a point of ministry IMO. As priest, I usually check with a family about photography prior to the service to make sure all is in order. For those who have no one to photograph my camera is pressed into service usually in the hands of my wife who is far better at event photography than I. But then I am an odd one as many of the clergy are not also photographers and although they understand the role of liturgy in the common life of the people do not seem to get the role of the photographic record of those events that the liturgy marks in ministering to those same people.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Well, I haven't used an Ikonta yet (I wouldn't mind one!) but I tend to prefer lens shutters mostly, and the ZI will have a Compur. And no reflex mirror slap. Which should be lovely and quiet. You could do worse for taking discreet images than that.

I have two suggestions. Firstly, unless you're intimately acquianted with the venue, try to get into it at a similar time of day, to take some light readings and see what you are going to be up against, light wise. Secondly, abandon any thoughts of colour (for film, at least) and get yourself some Delta 3200, or some Tri-X, and shoot black and white without the flash. Everybody shoots colour these days, via their phones or DSLR or whatever. Black and white film still delivers a tonality that can be marvellous. I love film more than most people (I don't use digital capture, except the very occasional phone snap), however for low light colour, digital has it all over film these days. So by all means, shoot film, but embrace its strengths--and if we're talking about lower light levels, that means black and white, baby.
Cheers,
Brett

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Just seen the photos. That looks pretty do-able, even with colour film and a fast lens, possibly. I'd still go black and white, though, the extra speed will give you some possible scope for stopping down, more DOF and may be more forgiving of any slight focus errors or subject movement. It's better to have more shutter speed than you strictly need if you can. You can usually go slower if you wish, but not always the reverse!
Cheers
Brett

 

[Spanik]

How far will you be from the subjects? (in other words, how close will the 100mm of the Ikonta focus?) If you want with such a camera enough depth of field to cover your bases with a group and you are close, then you will have to close a lot. Don't know if you will have enough light for even 400iso without flash. If you can try Brett's suggestion.

I don't know enough about flash, but maybe a softbox could help you.

 

[kermaier]

Well, I haven't used an Ikonta yet (I wouldn't mind one!) but I tend to prefer lens shutters mostly, and the ZI will have a Compur. And no reflex mirror slap. Which should be lovely and quiet. You could do worse for taking discreet images than that.

I have two suggestions. Firstly, unless you're intimately acquianted with the venue, try to get into it at a similar time of day, to take some light readings and see what you are going to be up against, light wise. Secondly, abandon any thoughts of colour (for film, at least) and get yourself some Delta 3200, or some Tri-X, and shoot black and white without the flash. Everybody shoots colour these days, via their phones or DSLR or whatever. Black and white film still delivers a tonality that can be marvellous. I love film more than most people (I don't use digital capture, except the very occasional phone snap), however for low light colour, digital has it all over film these days. So by all means, shoot film, but embrace its strengths--and if we're talking about lower light levels, that means black and white, baby.
Cheers,
Brett

+1: You may need to use reasonably fast shutter speeds to compensate for subject movement (people sometimes unconsciously keep jiggling the baby to soothe it), which means you may need to underexpose. Both color film and chromogenic black & white films (e.g., Ilford XP2) respond poorly to underexposure. So I'd go with Tri-X or T-Max 400, and be prepared to underexpose and push-process by 2 stops if conditions dictate.

 

[Dralowid]

I'm not particularly religious or over sensitive but I would draw a line at using flash in a church (or any other place of worship) in the UK...

 

[Dwig]

I would recommend:

• Talk to whoever will be officiating in advance about photography in general and the use of flash
• Visit the church in advance to review the situation and to take light readings
• DO NOT ATTEMPT to use any technique for the first time; use only techniques that you have experience with

 

[johnnyrod]

Wow, some great stuff there to think about, many thanks. When I started the thread I hadn't actually given it all much thought, I've been trying to learn flash techniques so had a head full of that and not much else.

Good points about not using flash. I'll see if I can do some metering when I get there to get a handle on things, but really it'll be a grabbed shot so I'll just have to do the best and hope they're going to be standing in front of that big window. Otherwise I'll try to find the opportunity later on, it's not worth making a fuss over as said above. I want to use the film in the camera but yes the shutter is a nice quiet click, always a bit of a surprise for such a large camera (compared to a Pentax MX or a modern happy snapper).

Flash in a church, maybe my relationship with the Lord is more relaxed but for one shot at a point when people have been invited to take pics wouldn't phase me, but no, not at other times. Most people will have small digis or phones so the odds of no flashes at all are zero, rightly or wrongly.

Dwig - think you have the right of it for a grabbed shot, stick to the known if it's going to work.

It seems to have sparked some interest so do carry on, this is all very interesting to me too