Has Leica alienated photographers?

[airfrogusmc]

I have never found a better digital camera for the type of work I do.

Rangefinders are not for everyone but for those they are for Leica M is as good as it gets.

My original MM is great in low light. As good as I need and the M 262 a great color body and is the M-E.

4 1/2 year old Leica technology. Original MM at 6400 ISO.

I have heard that the newer MM is a lot better in low light than the original. I find that the original is enough for me.

 

[tunalegs]

All of these Leica bashing threads seem to me like a mean spirited attempt by people who either cannot afford a Leica, or whose particular set of values prevents them owning one, to somehow make those of us who own and shoot Leica feel uncomfortable with our choice. If you dislike Leica, no one is forcing you to buy one. Live and let live, I say.

There is no sort of post I hate more than one saying "you can't criticize this because you can't afford one" or "you hate it because you can't buy it."

I guess we can't critique paintings in art museums, and all film critics are out of the job now because they can't afford to finance a blockbuster.

I have literally no interest in anything Leica currently produces, and only a tenuous interest in a few of their past products. Obviously, this must be because I can't afford to buy them, rather than every other conceivable and valid reason a person might have.

Oh wait, I have a IIIf right here on my desk...

 

[jaapv]

[...] it really took off in the '70s. [...]

More like 1929...

 

[jaapv]

In response to the bolded section.

Sensor corrosion, I'm sure I've read something about top plates, worn out strap lugs, months on end for repairs, huge slow zooms, a 50mm with visible distortion (that's impressive to manage), software corrections for the lenses on the Q and SL, and a focusing system that can go out of wack, and you need to send it off to have it calibrated.

doesn't match up with your list to me.

You're a "Leica shooter" and dedicated to it, the question is wider than "has Leica alienated Leica shooters" it's "has it alienated photographers" and it's been pointed out before that this is a very different question.

Honestly I wholeheartedly hope you enjoy your experience with them.
I want Leica to continue to be a success, even though I'm absolutely horrible with Rangefinders.

One of the things that will enable that is brutal honesty about where they sit in the photography world, where you feel like they do well of course, but also where they fall behind other manufacturers.

There are people on here who have contact with people at Leica, we know they're aware of the site. I absolutely understand that when you find the camera that is right for you, you feel an emotional connection to it. I feel the same about some of my gear. I'm aware of it's issues though.

We all know their photojournalistic pedigree, and they certainly trade on it. How many are actively choosing a Leica over the alternatives now? and for those who arent, why not?

You didn't have to mention that, it is clear from your posts...

As for your list of "defects", I'm sure that you know that it is mainly a load of Internet baloney...
Top plates? You probably mean that the top plate of the M6 from 1982 may show some cosmetic damage after a few decades of use...
Yes, sensor corrosion, but do you know the reason? It could not have happened on another type of camera. And what other camera maker replaces the sensor for free without even asking about guaranty? It took a class action to get Nikon to do so, and even then they attempted to muzzle the publication of the facts.
Huge slow zooms (SL I suppose) - yes, for Leica M users, not if you compare to SoCaNikon etc.
Distortion on a 50? I wonder where you got that one from. It must have been Digiloyd..
Integrated digital-optical corrections. Indeed, anybody who is not living a stone knows that all major manufacturers are starting to use that technology to improve their lenses. It is an extra degree of freedom to correct higher order aberrations. It would be stupid if a lens designer did not take advantage of this progress.
Yes, a mechanical rangefinder system can be knocked out of calibration by the very nature of the system, so Leica made that practically impossible on their newer models.
The only things you are correct about are the strap lugs-a manufacturing defect ( loose - not worn, the locking compound on the screws was missing) in a small series of cameras and there were actually nine cameras that really worked loose - do you want a list of bloopers industry-wide?
And the service times - that is a realistic point of critique.

As for the photojournalistic pedigree, where do you think the association of Leica and Magnum comes from?

 

[______]

Well, someone's ox has been gored.

 

[tunalegs]

More like 1929...

It doesn't change my point about special editions being desperate marketing ploys. Although there's a difference I think between luxus models and "slather it in decals and hope anal-retentive collectors with money to burn fall for it" special editions.

It doesn't alienate me, but it does seem a little sad.

As for the photojournalistic pedigree, where do you think the association of Leica and Magnum comes from?

Marketing. Where else?

 

[ajramirez]

I have literally no interest in anything Leica currently produces, and only a tenuous interest in a few of their past products.

This begs the question as to why you even bother commenting on Leica threads. Is it some sort of public service where you feel you must educate all who may otherwise commit the egregious error of picking up a Leica kit?

Do you perform this service for other camera brands as well or is it just Leica that people need to be warned against?

Of course, if the only Leica product that interests you is the IIIf, I can understand why you would not care for any of Leica's current offerings.

 

[airfrogusmc]

To collectors it's not a ploy and if it helps Leica'a bottom line and gives them the financial freedom to not try and compete with the one size fits all that is the world of digital photography especially the big two and make great tools like the MM and the M 262 then Leica should keep on doing what they are doing. At least they are giving photographers like me a real choice.

 

[tunalegs]

This begs the question as to why you even bother commenting on Leica threads. Is it some sort of public service where you feel you must educate all who may otherwise commit the egregious error of picking up a Leica kit?

Do you perform this service for other camera brands as well or is it just Leica that people need to be warned against?

Of course, if the only Leica product that interests you is the IIIf, I can understand why you would not care for any of Leica's current offerings.

Because it's a forum, and the question is open for discussion. I'm not telling anybody else not to buy one. I'm just expressing my own feelings on the matter. That's what forums are for.

For all I care, collectors can buy them, put them in a drawer until they croak, or give them to friends who'll shoot some pics and have some fun. Either way it's money in Leica's pockets. I just don't like the non-sequitur that people only complain because they can't afford one or can, but think it's too much money.

 

[ajramirez]

I just don't like the non-sequitur that people only complain because they can't afford one or can, but think it's too much money.

It's not really a non-sequitur when the first alternative among the answers to the poll question is, and I quote, "Yes, I feel alienated by Leica's high prices." So, I think it's fair to assume that most folks complaining about Leica in this thread, particularly those who have never held a modern Leica body in their hands, are complaining because they cannot afford one or it does not fit in their particular set of values.

And I ask again, do you feel equally compelled to similarly offer your opinion on threads on other camera brands or just Leica?

 

[tunalegs]

And I ask again, do you feel equally compelled to similarly offer your opinion on threads on other camera brands or just Leica?

Point me to the threads about silly special editions from other companies.

PS: OP was more about value for money than outright affordability. There's a fundamental difference there.

 

[nikonhswebmaster]

Point me to the threads about silly special editions from other companies.

Surely you know how to access Google? But here are some starters for fun. Probably there are threads on the RFF, but looking for them is a PITA.

http://www.kehblog.com/2011/05/nikon-collectible-cameras.html

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/247205467020899593/

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2014/12/open-mike-collectibles.html

http://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/hasselblad-x1d-special-edition/

 

[tunalegs]

Surely you know how to access Google?

Because google is rangefinderforum. 6 _9

 

[CameraQuest]

It's not really a non-sequitur when the first alternative among the answers to the poll question is, and I quote, "Yes, I feel alienated by Leica's high prices." So, I think it's fair to assume..

fair perhaps, accurate no.

After this thread became very popular I added the poll - the OP did not.

The order of choices indicate nothing in terms of preference, only choices.

After the thread became more developed, I added the last poll choice.

 

[nikonhswebmaster]

Because google is rangefinderforum. 6 _9

I have no idea what you are driving at (6 _9??), but Google search is better at finding content on the RFF, than V Bulletin's search engine.

I'm sure you can find threads concerning limited editions other than Leica's. My point was who keeps a mental list of RFF treads to point to?

 

[tunalegs]

I have no idea what you are driving at (6 _9??), but Google search is better at finding content on the RFF, than V Bulletin's search engine.

I'm sure you can find threads concerning limited editions other than Leica's. My point was who keeps a mental list of RFF treads to point to?

They exist on RFF, and I have posted in them before. I don't know what you're trying to get at though. And I don't know why I'd be expected to discuss topics on RFF, when they're hosted on other sites either, so I'm not sure why you gave those links.

I'm not sure where any of this circular "well if you don't like Leica, you shouldn't talk about Leica because you don't like Leica" rhetoric is headed either. Quite a few people in this thread own Leicas and have a Leica as their favorite camera, but still find the seeming shift in the company's focus and products to be something other than worthy of admiration. Are their views invalid just because they're not what everybody wants to read?

 

[user237428934]

Quite a few people in this thread own Leicas and have a Leica as their favorite camera, but still find the seeming shift in the company's focus and products to be something other than worthy of admiration. Are their views invalid just because they're not what everybody wants to read?

Of course the focus of Leica shifted. They have more acively produced camera types than ever before (Various Ms for colour and monochrome, Xs, T, S2). And they have less special edition cameras than in the 1990s (when I remember right that was a high time of gold editions).

Open your eyes guys if you think they shifted to producing more special editions than in the past. It's exactly the opposite.

edit: and I forgot the Q in the list of current cameras.

 

[jaapv]

It doesn't change my point about special editions being desperate marketing ploys. Although there's a difference I think between luxus models and "slather it in decals and hope anal-retentive collectors with money to burn fall for it" special editions.

It doesn't alienate me, but it does seem a little sad.

Desperate marketing? Leica is a company, not a religion. Why should they not sell products that cost little to develop and bring in a lot of money, which can be used for the R&D of their regular products?
Plus, it is a good way to test the interest in some of their wilder ideas, like dropping the LCD. The special edition generated so much interest that they brought out a regular model, for instance.

 

[tunalegs]

Of course the focus of Leica shifted. They have more acively produced camera types than ever before (Various Ms for colour and monochrome, Xs, T, S2). And they have less special edition cameras than in the 1990s (when I remember right that was a high time of gold editions).

Open your eyes guys if you think they shifted to producing more special editions than in the past. It's exactly the opposite.

edit: and I forgot the Q in the list of current cameras.

Reference the first post in the thread, then reread the post you just responded to. I wasn't talking specifically about special editions.

Desperate marketing? Leica is a company, not a religion. Why should they not sell products that cost little to develop and bring in a lot of money, which can be used for the R&D of their regular products?
Plus, it is a good way to test the interest in some of their wilder ideas, like dropping the LCD. The special edition generated so much interest that they brought out a regular model, for instance.

All beside the point. I'm speaking about things like pre-brassed cameras, and special colors. Fashion over substance. Not limited releases of new technology to test the market. Putting some special color on something and advertising it as a limited edition is a classic desperate marketing move. Period. It's why car makers always introduce a slew of special trim and decal packages when an old model's sales start falling off. You may like it or not, doesn't change anything.

 

[jaapv]

Yes, it is a marketing move in the sense that it offers a product for sale. So what? If it sells, it is a correct marketing move. What puzzles me is why it should jog the jealousy nerve on some people.
Those are the kind of people that agonize that they cannot afford a pair of Zai Spada for Antoine skis, a Trophy wife, or a Blancpain Millenium watch.

As it is, there is very little desperate about Leica nowadays. They are one of the very few camera companies that are doing well.

Of the three, BTW, I only tried Zai skis, and I can assure you they are great, but my Stöcklis are as good.
I would like to try out the other two as well, but no chance...