Has Leica alienated photographers?

[pgk]

It's how are they as a value proposition, which instantly draws them into comparison with the rest of the market.

You make an interesting point which whilst it might appear on the surface to be valid needs significantly qualifying. I would suggest that its perceived value. Given that the very vast majority of people who own cameras probably rarely, if ever, use their cameras to their full capabilities much of the quibbling that goes on on camera forums is theoretical rather than actual. I've recently been able to play with a Sony A6000 which I have to say produces very nice images. In fact it probably produces images which would be genuinely acceptable to most (99+%) people.

So arguing over the alienation by high end camera manufacturers and values is pretty meaningless. If anyone is really, genuinely interested in image quality at the lowest price - ie real, absolute value - then there are far better alternatives than cameras at the higher end of the market. As it happens I use Leicas because I enjoy doing so and take better photographs with them as a result, and I see them as low depreciation gear. (I have made a living out of photography for the last 26 years as it happens too).

I suspect that threads like this have more to do with egos than actual alienation.....

 

[jsrockit]

I suspect that the majority of new M series cameras that are sold are never very serious.

I think you could say that about every camera on the market.

 

[jaapv]

I suspect that the majority of new M series cameras that are sold are never very serious. My M 262 was bought second-hand at a 30% discount. The first owner was a doctor, who took probably no more than a few douzen shots. It still had the original protective film on the LCD. It cost less than an A7rII or a 5DIV.

The isssue for me is that the current M series give the impression that they are designed mainly for people that will not make heavy use of them, and who buy them mainly for the brand and some kind of perceived status. Hence the lack of useful features such as sensor cleaning, the presence of nonsical but nostalgic features such as the baseplate, and the frustrating service times.

Perhaps the M 10 will address some of this...

I don't know about all cameras sold. I do know that most owners on LUF take them far too seriously...😉

 

[______]

I don't know about all cameras sold. I do know that most owners on LUF take them far too seriously...😉

Someone had the audacity to suggest posting some photos taken with the new Hasselblad X1D and the moderators were quick to disabuse him of the notion.

 

[nikonhswebmaster]

Just out of curiosity, and I say this as someone who always enjoys your street work on here.

What do you do when the commercial work calls for longer focal lengths than RF is comfortable with?

I'm not trying to score a point, I'm genuinely curious.

I was kind of hoping the airfrog would answer this.

I was tempted to say "walk." What I used to tell my students, who were on buying binges.

If an unusual project is planned by an art director equipment is often rented. I used to work in industrial film, where most of our projects used rental.

 

[airfrogusmc]

The isssue for me is that the current M series give the impression that they are designed mainly for people that will not make heavy use of them, and who buy them mainly for the brand and some kind of perceived status. Hence the lack of useful features such as sensor cleaning, the presence of nonsical but nostalgic features such as the baseplate, and the frustrating service times.

Then why would the even make a camera like the MM, M 262 or the M-D? Those are certainly not cameras for the masses and with cameras like the M-D without all the automation a photographer without some technical skill will be lost. BTW I like the base plates but agree about sensor cleaning.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I was kind of hoping the airfrog would answer this.

I was tempted to say "walk." What I used to tell my students, who were on buying binges.

If an unusual project is planned by an art director equipment is often rented. I used to work in industrial film, where most of our projects used rental.

I did answer this!!!!See # 633

 

[brennanphotoguy]

Tuna there are still a lot of photographers that shoot with Leica and Leica digital. Ralph Gibson produced a book shoot entirely with the MM, Jill Freedman shoots with digital Leica M and does Meyerowitz to name just 3.

And Karl I would say there are some lawyers buying them but there and a lot of lawyers buying Nicanon1DxMkIVs whatever. There are working photographers that buy Leica. I know a few including me.

To be fair, Joel Meyerowitz also shot a good amount of work with an 8x10 and Ralph Gibson is a fine art photographer and Jill Freedman is a documentary/street photographer. All of which are fine to use with a rangefinder. They aren't "commercial" photographers producing large bodies of work for clients as much as they are living off licensing their older work. I'm not knocking them by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just saying that times have changed since you could shoot and drop your work off with your agency and they would take care of developing, scanning and distributing your work. The amount of people working this way is close to none with the norm now being tethering to laptops for immediate viewing, wifi download to servers for world wide distribution within seconds of snapping the shutter, clients requesting heavy amounts of manipulation, etc depending on the kind of work you're doing or the client you're working for.

 

[nikonhswebmaster]

I did answer this!!!!See # 633

Ah so you did.

I always say that you learn to see for the appropriate F/L. Having said that in all of my work in all he years I have been doing this 75 will cover the longest almost always. For many years with my DSLRs my longest was 85. In fact 60% maybe more I shoot with a 35mm lens.​

You were detailed, but but you basically said "walk."

If you have personal style, clients know it, and should hire you because of that style. I always walk, like you apparently I really don't much like the look of long tele, but there could be exceptions, and I would rent.

Sorry I missed your response, there is so much density in this thread.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Ah so you did.

I always say that you learn to see for the appropriate F/L. Having said that in all of my work in all he years I have been doing this 75 will cover the longest almost always. For many years with my DSLRs my longest was 85. In fact 60% maybe more I shoot with a 35mm lens.​

You were detailed, but but you basically said "walk."

If you have personal style, clients know it, and should hire you because of that style. I always walk, like you apparently I really don't much like the look of long tele, but there could be exceptions, and I would rent.

Sorry I missed your response, there is so much density in this thread.

I had a 200 2L and I did use it but it did stay in the bag a lot and it was big and heavy and to be honest I never needed it. I don't need a lens that long now. I don't miss shots I just see different shots and it works for me. In college we all had a saying "crop tight for the visually impaired". I don't think that there is just one way to make an image and I prefer to use elements in the frame to compose instead of blurring with bokeh and cropping everything out. Not saying that might be right for others it just isn't the normal way I work now.

 

[user237428934]

Sensor cleaning would be really nice. Jaap wrote in another thread that this would make the camera a bit thicker because the cleaning adds some milimeters to the sensor stack. The question is, do they really get more buyers with sensor cleaning or do people stay away because body gets thicker.

I wet clean the sensor 2-4 times a year. Costs 5 minutes of my time, not a big deal.

 

[airfrogusmc]

To be fair, Joel Meyerowitz also shot a good amount of work with an 8x10 and Ralph Gibson is a fine art photographer and Jill Freedman is a documentary/street photographer. All of which are fine to use with a rangefinder. They aren't "commercial" photographers producing large bodies of work for clients as much as they are living off licensing their older work. I'm not knocking them by any stretch of the imagination, I'm just saying that times have changed since you could shoot and drop your work off with your agency and they would take care of developing, scanning and distributing your work. The amount of people working this way is close to none with the norm now being tethering to laptops for immediate viewing, wifi download to servers for world wide distribution within seconds of snapping the shutter, clients requesting heavy amounts of manipulation, etc depending on the kind of work you're doing or the client you're working for.

First I was responding to a statement that had nothing to do with commercial work but pointing out many of the older established photographer still worked with Leica's and I never said Meyerowitz didn't work with other cameras.

My commercial work is about day rates, half day rates and usage. I do not worked tethered and won't. My client's get finished work form me, no raw files leave my office. I work on every image that is seen by either the art directors, designers and most important the client. I will send electronic low res contact sheets but those have already been processed, color balanced etc. I still have my very first client.

One thing I have learned along the way is to use equipment that is best suited for the way I see and work. I have that. Why do some forum folks get their panties in a bunch over this? Who cares what is used to get the image? My clients don't. All they care about is the vision I have and the results. My clients come to me. I don't even have a web site. That is not how i would get work or the work I would want.

 

[jsrockit]

Why do non-Pros care what Pros use in the first place?

 

[Emile de Leon]

A recent survey of molar dentists...recommend Leica ..above anything else...🙂

 

[airfrogusmc]

Why do non-Pros care what Pros use in the first place?

Yeah I mean who cares? I think we all need to take our preferred equipment and go make a few photographs instead of hating or snobbing or whatever we do when we are not being creative and visually productive. 😀

Here's another thing to think about. I will probably retire to a place (still a few years away I hope ha ha) where street work will probably be a lot less interesting and I might just pick up an old 8X10 Deardorff and do B&W zone system landscape work. Who knows what the future will bring but for now at this point in time I use what I use because it works for me and I can and would use any type of equipment I need to use.

 

[brennanphotoguy]

Since my day job requires me to sell to professionals and assist with problems that come up in workflow and product assistance then I guess that's why I care. I have to stay up to date with current trends and technology so I can help. I've made $100k single sales to commercial studios, sold to celebrities, students, beginners, SI photographers, freelance photographers/videoographers doing large jobs for Honda, very well known street photographers, NYT/WP/ press photographers, etc. Selling to people with various degrees of "need" require that I be well versed in everything possible.

 

[jsrockit]

Since my day job requires me to sell to professionals and assist with problems that come up in workflow and product assistance then I guess that's why I care. I have to stay up to date with current trends and technology so I can help.

That's fair... but the guys that come into your shop aren't the only types of Pros out there either. There are mainstream, everyday pros that use mainstream equipment and there are artists (and many other types) that may or may not use mainstream equipment. Trends in the industry may affect one type of photographer and not another. For most of us on this thread, what a Pro uses really doesn't matter. What matters is does it work for you and what you want to accomplish. If you are going the artists route, you might not be a pro while you make your most important work. You may only be consider pro if you can actually sell it some form.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Since my day job requires me to sell to professionals and assist with problems that come up in workflow and product assistance then I guess that's why I care. I have to stay up to date with current trends and technology so I can help. I've made $100k single sales to commercial studios, sold to celebrities, students, beginners, SI photographers, freelance photographers/videoographers doing large jobs for Honda, NYT/WP/ press photographers, etc. Selling to people with various degrees of "need" require that I be well versed in everything possible.

But heres the rub bro, why do you care what I do? First I think it's vulgar to talk money in the open but for this area where I live 100K is good but certainly not great. I am very happy for you because it is hard to make it today. I don't do video at all though I did study some tv and film in college,3/4 inch days, and probably could still do it but I see in terms of moments and still is my medium.

I have a large, very loyal, client base that was built on quality and trust. It is great to be able to work on my terms not on terms of others. I am blessed to not have to try and be everything to everyone but have a niche that has a great base of loyal clients. To get hired for the look and the quality of ones work, needless to say, is satisfying in many different ways.

 

[nikonhswebmaster]

Since my day job requires me to sell to professionals and assist with problems that come up in workflow and product assistance then I guess that's why I care. I have to stay up to date with current trends and technology so I can help. I've made $100k single sales to commercial studios, sold to celebrities, students, beginners, SI photographers, freelance photographers/videoographers doing large jobs for Honda, very well known street photographers, NYT/WP/ press photographers, etc. Selling to people with various degrees of "need" require that I be well versed in everything possible.

The question was "Why do non-Pros care what Pros use in the first place?"

You are clearly in the professional camera business. Although there are fewer and fewer truly pro stores where I live, mostly box stores, full of salespeople who have no clue.

 

[brennanphotoguy]

Reread what I typed. I didn't say I made that much. I said...nevermind. There's nothing I can say at this point that will make any dent in your shielded arguments.