hcb quote

When musicians say that music flows out of them does that mean they do not practice or know their scales?
 
Ahhh...dovi has the best post to date.

This is a photography forum. Why not post some photos to support these arguments? Why is it photographers on this forum resort to babble when a few images to illustrate what they are talking about would make so much more sense?:)

In other words, prove it with your own photos.

Or, at the least, show the so-called geometry in representative HCB photos. I am a big fan of Henri, but I have yet to see this geometrical argument overlayed on his photos. If there is a resource showing that, please link to it.

Lest someone think I don't believe in the HCB philosophy, I do, or at least, I think I do on faith alone because nowhere have I seen his geometry actually drawn on his photos.
 
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Nando said:
Juan,

I suggest that you read "Henri Cartier-Bresson and the Artless Art"; a thesis by Jean-Pierre Montier that deeply analyzes HC-B's work and the man himself. There is an entire chapter devoted to the HC-B's use of classical geometry. Whether instinctive or not, HC-B's sense for classical geometry and devine proportion is essential to the success of his images, both when taking the image and in the editing phase. He may have been born with "a good eye" but it was cultivated through the teachings of Andre L'hote and HC-B's own study of past masters.
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I have not read this thesis, but I agree completely--that HCB had an amazing sense of geometry, including angles and proportions (i.e., elements of design). He spoke of it, but, more importantly, you can see it in his work. After all, he was trained in painting and later took pride in his drawing. That's one thing I am trying to learn about--design--so that I can then retroactively use it to improve my photography. (HCB did it in the other order.)
 
Hi Nando,

No doubt HCB studied form and proportion. I did too, for years during my career, as other 2000 students and photographers from all around the world during those years, and I guess you can believe me those 2000 including myself don't compose like HCB...

More things: I never said he (or us) didn't study those things... Obviously I know about HCB's drawing and painting and museums visiting from his youngest years to his latest ones, before, during and after his shooting decades... I never wrote against those things...

What I wrote from the beginning is, HCB said a lot of times (not Juan) he didn't think about anything while shooting, not even about geometric plans for composition: he just framed a bit and waited for things to come (as he said) until things worked for him from intuition...

Those geometric, more planned shots are common for landscape, architecture and slow or tripod photography, but for street, unobtrusive shooting, and moving subjects, there's no time for that at all: you got to shoot when you feel your image express things intensely, and of course geometry can help to express with clarity, but that's different from considering grids to place your subjects on them...

Two more things: both the geometric and the decisive moment tales other people have fulfilled with their own imagination after HCB's comments on them, are studied when you study photography, as are studied totally contrary theories against the exaggerated ways some people try to apply those concepts for their own shooting... If I remember well, there's even one called "the anti-decisive moment" :) All this I wrote about is not my idea at all, and I'm not offering any new idea: this discussion, if we can call it that way, is decades old: people tend to generalize HCB's ways of shooting, and absolutes aren't generally true... The last thing: less than half HCB's work has a clear geometrical base, and I have seen in person hundreds of his photographs.

You can have another opinion and I respect it... Mine is "although HCB loved composition and studied it, while shooting he had no geometrical rules or grids to think about, just intuition and talent" and if it's not like that, he really enjoyed being a liar on his interviews... :)

Cheers,

Juan
 
I wonder if you could be taking what he said too literally Juan, he may well have said he wasn't actively thinking about geometry when he was shooting, which is probably true insofar as his understanding of composition was so deeply entrenched that it became intuitive, but it seems to me a very informed intuition. I would actually find it difficult to find an example of his work that doesn't exhibit a strong sense of geometry, I suppose that's what I find so odd about your observations as they are almost the opposite of how i would view them, and i'm trying to get my head around your take on things.
i'll do as Dave has asked and put my head above the parapet here and post an example of one of my photographs. This is one of those rare occasions when you do intuitively know that you have a strong image, they approached me in a knot then spread out in my viewfinder into this lovely balanced pattern, on que the girl to the left swung her skirt and bingo you have a winner, but at no point was I thinking of grids or thirds or triangles or lines, as i say the pattern just blossomed, but only because I have an understanding of compositional elements, you can't divorce what you've learned or been influenced by from the equation. I'd like to add I'm in no way saying I share anything with HCB, I'm just posting an example of a photo shot on the hoof, with no grid overlays stuck to my viewfinder but with what your calling intuition, but it's an informed, experienced and educated intuition.


025 by fatbobbyrab, on Flickr
 
bobbyrab said:
I wonder if you could be taking what he said too literally Juan, he may well have said he wasn't actively thinking about geometry when he was shooting, which is probably true insofar as his understanding of composition was so deeply entrenched that it became intuitive, but it seems to me a very informed intuition. I would actually find it difficult to find an example of his work that doesn't exhibit a strong sense of geometry, I suppose that's what I find so odd about your observations as they are almost the opposite of how i would view them, and i'm trying to get my head around your take on things.
i'll do as Dave has asked and put my head above the parapet here and post an example of one of my photographs. This is one of those rare occasions when you do intuitively know that you have a strong image, they approached me in a knot then spread out in my viewfinder into this lovely balanced pattern, on que the girl to the left swung her skirt and bingo you have a winner, but at no point was I thinking of grids or thirds or triangles or lines, as i say the pattern just blossomed, but only because I have an understanding of compositional elements, you can't divorce what you've learned or been influenced by from the equation. I'd like to add I'm in no way saying I share anything with HCB, I'm just posting an example of a photo shot on the hoof, with no grid overlays stuck to my viewfinder but with what your calling intuition, but it's an informed, experienced and educated intuition.


025 by fatbobbyrab, on Flickr
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Very nice, Bobby! Looks like a golden mean to me!:)

Can't tell you how many times I find the same thing happening to me.
 
 
About not thinking at all while shooting, that's was what he said literally. And he even said he couldn't teach it because he didn't know consciously how he did it. That implies it was not a process of composing to be as close as possible to any previous geometric pattern he had in mind common to any image he would ever create...

The fact we were discussing, was not if geometry is relevant (it is to all of us) but if it's a good idea to have a grid (or similar) in mind while shooting, or not. Then it changed to if HCB used to shoot having a grid (or similar) in mind, or not. Both answers are -to me- no.

I think we've all been clear enough by now, and we don't need to go on with this A/B subject anymore... We just need to go out shooting the way we prefer.

Cheers,

Juan
 
Juan Valdenebro said:
The fact we were discussing, was not if geometry is relevant (it is to all of us) but if it's a good idea to have a grid (or similar) in mind while shooting, or not. Then it changed to if HCB used to shoot having a grid (or similar) in mind, or not. Both answers are -to me- no.
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Juan,
Sorry but you continue bewilder me. When I look back at the posts in this thread, you are the first to mention rules and grids. In fact, your summary of the discussion so far doesn't jive at all with what I've read in this thread.

??????

Anyway, have fun shooting, thinking or not thinking, en su manera. :)

Nando
 
I have to admit I only became interested in him very very recently (read months). I was always aware of him, but only after watching an ICP interview of him done in the 60 did I fall in love.

Strangely, what I take from him is not geometry or decisive moment. What fascinates me about him is his openness to the world around him. He says it himself (paraphrasing): If you want too much it doesn't come. You need to be available.

I also like him as a surrealist, and not as a street/documentary photographer as he usually is portrayed as.

I think he also said "The most important things about photography cannot be taught". By that I think he's referring to intuition, luck and patience (=being open and available).

p.s.: didn't know the puddle jump was pure luck...He said he didn't evn see the man, or so he says. I remember that picture being used in one of my few photo classes as the example of "decisive moment": we all see what we want to see in this world...

Someone asked for pictures to illustrate the words. So here are, to me, oldies but goldies:


20100321_18_T3 by Martin N. Hinze, on Flickr


20090825_29_ZI by Martin N. Hinze, on Flickr
 
Nando said:
Juan,
Sorry but you continue bewilder me. When I look back at the posts in this thread, you are the first to mention rules and grids. In fact, your summary of the discussion so far doesn't jive at all with what I've read in this thread.

??????

Anyway, have fun shooting, thinking or not thinking, en su manera. :)

Nando
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Hi Nando, the grid thing comes from a previous thread (deleted) that had a link to a theory consisting of a lot of lines that "would explain" any great photograph... We were discussing if using a grid like that would be a real way of making new photographs as good as the ones used to explain the theory, and also if HCB used anything like that on mind while shooting... I said no... I asked for real examples of photographers having talked about shooting that way... I was insulted, and the next day I found the thread had been deleted...

Now, on this thread by Joe, he lightened the importance of geometry in HCB's work, one that anyone having heard of HCB knows of, as geometry is the most used word to talk about his images, and also because he studied the classics and drawed and painted, and loved to talk about how much he liked composition since he was very young... My participation on this thread (may be interesting to you or not, and you may agree or not) is directly related to Joe's post: in which way did HCB use geometry while shooting? A preconceived pattern, or an intuition/talent sudden shooting? He answered that question a lot of times.

(All this just to explain you... Well, I think I should not go on with this thread... I've said the same lots of times...:p Thanks!)

Cheers,

Juan
 
Acting on Dovi's suggestion and following Bobby's and Martin's lead, I humbly present some of my photos. I do actively think of geometry and placement while I'm looking at things. I don't see this being incompatible with street photography at all.


My Mother, Salvaterra de Magos by ~ Nando ~, on Flickr


Confession, Igreja de Santiago, Coimbra by ~ Nando ~, on Flickr


At the Municipal Market, Coimbra by ~ Nando ~, on Flickr


Pastelaria Toledo, Largo da Portagem, Coimbra by ~ Nando ~, on Flickr


Rua Ferreira Borges, Coimbra by ~ Nando ~, on Flickr


Largo da Portagem, Coimbra by ~ Nando ~, on Flickr


At a Bank, Coimbra by ~ Nando ~, on Flickr
 
mto'brien said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfwNrPX2pvw&feature=related

Another video detailing his views on the importance of luck, geometry, etc... I think his line about having an awareness of geometry, yet not thinking about it cuts to the core of all this recent debate.

Let's not forget that he shot his most famous photograph totally blind by sticking the lens between two slats in a fence and firing the shutter.
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Nice shots Nando, I particularly like #6.

With regards the man jumping the puddle, it wasn't as far as I read, totally blind at all. Someone had placed a plank in the centre of the puddle allowing them to jump across, he knew someone would come along and he'd get the jump, so he framed the shot and waited. He couldn't get the camera through the fence slats, so the neg has one of the fence slats in shot to the left, this meant the neg had to be cropped when printing which meant in turn he couldn't have the frame edge printed. It certainly wasn't a lucky grab shot that totally blind would imply.
 
I've heard (video, not reading) HCB explain the shot was just good luck because he couldn't compose at all... He said something like "...there was just a little hole for the lens to pass, and I couldn't really know how the photograph was going to be..." and then he added "...not only that shot: most of my shots have been good luck... It's not enough with myself: I need the help of good luck..." What I think -and I agree with bobbyrab- is possibly HCB did what he said he usually did: compose and imagine framing with his eyes only (through the hole in that case) and then he waited and gave the scene a try, or a few ones: I don't know if he did shoot there several times...

Cheers,

Juan
 
morback said:
p.s.: didn't know the puddle jump was pure luck...He said he didn't evn see the man, or so he says. I remember that picture being used in one of my few photo classes as the example of "decisive moment": we all see what we want to see in this world...
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Are you sure about this? Where did you see this info?

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Nice photo...
 
bobbyrab said:
Nice shots Nando, I particularly like #6.

With regards the man jumping the puddle, it wasn't as far as I read, totally blind at all. Someone had placed a plank in the centre of the puddle allowing them to jump across, he knew someone would come along and he'd get the jump, so he framed the shot and waited. He couldn't get the camera through the fence slats, so the neg has one of the fence slats in shot to the left, this meant the neg had to be cropped when printing which meant in turn he couldn't have the frame edge printed. It certainly wasn't a lucky grab shot that totally blind would imply.
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I'm sorry, did you bother to watch the video I posted a link to? Here it is again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfwNr...eature=related

That image is the first thing he talks about...
 
Seems to me that he could not see through his VF, but he could see the decisive moment outside the camera and knew when to hit the shutter release. The uncropped version of this photo is quite wide, so he knew he'd have to crop later anyway and that everything would be in the frame. I do not buy for one second that he couldn't see anything in any form.
 
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