The problem with the concept of "hate" speech, is who is the arbiter?
Who decides exactly what is "hate?" Or even, what's acceptable speech and what is not?
On a private forum, of course, it's up to the forum management to decide, and to manage it impartially.
Funny story:
China banned Winnie the Pooh. Google it and you'll see how that came about, back in 2013.
Fast forward to today; the CCP has installed an army of twitter propagandists, to spout pro-China viewpoints. (The regular Chinese populace can't get on Twitter.)
These propagandists repeatedly claim that they are free to say whatever they want, but when their bluff is called, without exception, they refuse to say what they claim they are free to say.
("I'll believe you if you tweet that Xi Jinping looks like Winnie the Pooh. Just say it as a joke. Look how easy it is for us Americans: Donald Trump looks like an orange clown. Your turn.")
Here is the thread: https://twitter.com/neontaster/status/1248266822970941441
Personally I'm very pleased I'm free to call Trump an orange clown if I feel like doing so.
Who decides exactly what is "hate?" Or even, what's acceptable speech and what is not?
On a private forum, of course, it's up to the forum management to decide, and to manage it impartially.
Funny story:
China banned Winnie the Pooh. Google it and you'll see how that came about, back in 2013.
Fast forward to today; the CCP has installed an army of twitter propagandists, to spout pro-China viewpoints. (The regular Chinese populace can't get on Twitter.)
These propagandists repeatedly claim that they are free to say whatever they want, but when their bluff is called, without exception, they refuse to say what they claim they are free to say.
("I'll believe you if you tweet that Xi Jinping looks like Winnie the Pooh. Just say it as a joke. Look how easy it is for us Americans: Donald Trump looks like an orange clown. Your turn.")
Here is the thread: https://twitter.com/neontaster/status/1248266822970941441
Personally I'm very pleased I'm free to call Trump an orange clown if I feel like doing so.
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
To a degree, I disagree with this approach. Very little gets changed when no one 'announces from the mountain top'. Look at everything going on in the U.S. right now. There's a LOT of mountain top voices out there now and they are there because of the very important issues that need to be addressed right now. If those voices weren't there, no change, no improvement.
Rayt
Nonplayer Character
The problem with the concept of "hate" speech, is who is the arbiter?
Who decides exactly what is "hate?" Or even, what's acceptable speech and what is not?
On a private forum, of course, it's up to the forum management to decide, and to manage it impartially.
Funny story:
China banned Winnie the Pooh. Google it and you'll see how that came about, back in 2013.
Fast forward to today; the CCP has installed an army of twitter propagandists, to spout pro-China viewpoints. (The regular Chinese populace can't get on Twitter.)
These propagandists repeatedly claim that they are free to say whatever they want, but when their bluff is called, without exception, they refuse to say what they claim they are free to say.
("I'll believe you if you tweet that Xi Jinping looks like Winnie the Pooh. Just say it as a joke. Look how easy it is for us Americans: Donald Trump looks like an orange clown. Your turn.")
Here is the thread: https://twitter.com/neontaster/status/1248266822970941441
Personally I'm very pleased I'm free to call Trump an orange clown if I feel like doing so.
Absolutely! More power to you. I plan to talk about this with my one minute at the DNC pow wow. But this is a photography forum. I don’t talk about my prostate problems here either. Is it dripping?
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
Then shut it all down... its not worth where this is all leading. And that's basically what I 'read' in Helen's decision. Participation in this stew called social media can be seen as tacit approval of the direction it might be going. Either opting out (Helen's choice), or insisting on significant regulation of trollishness (my suggestion of real names) seem to be the only ways out.
I'm not in any way suggesting we talk politics here, in fact, that's exactly what should NOT be happening. See my prior post about how other forums handle it...
I simply stated that I'm glad I can state things freely without going to re-education camp if I choose to do so; many other people in this world cannot.
I don't think real names will do anything but discourage people to register. And who is to say that when "George Washington" registers, it's really a legit name? It won't reduce the desire of many to engage in trolling and the usual litany of other online offenses.
The key is fair forum moderation. This takes time and effort, some owners of forums simply don't want to spend the time, which is their choice; they'd rather just implement a ban and be done with it.
Jamie Pillers
Skeptic
O.K.... I'll go with that. But its obviously becoming more and more important on the web. Maybe not such a huge problem here at RFF... yet. But just watching the trend elsewhere, it might not be long. To me, Helen (and others over the past few years) are the 'cannaries in the coal mine', IMO.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Absolutely the case. They are seeking attention. When they are ignored they will give up. Conversely, the more you talk about how bad they are, they relish the attention and increase their efforts.
Archlich
Well-known
Just want to chime in to say that apparently you can still get Pooh in China. Available through Disneyland Shanghai & Hong kong, Disney's flagship online store and numerous vendors (not all of them licensed though).
https://imgpile.com/images/uCn09a.png
I digress, but what has this thread been about anyway?
peterm1
Veteran
The problem with the concept of "hate" speech, is who is the arbiter?
Who decides exactly what is "hate?" Or even, what's acceptable speech and what is not?
On a private forum, of course, it's up to the forum management to decide, and to manage it impartially.
Funny story:
China banned Winnie the Pooh. Google it and you'll see how that came about, back in 2013.
Fast forward to today; the CCP has installed an army of twitter propagandists, to spout pro-China viewpoints. (The regular Chinese populace can't get on Twitter.)
These propagandists repeatedly claim that they are free to say whatever they want, but when their bluff is called, without exception, they refuse to say what they claim they are free to say.
("I'll believe you if you tweet that Xi Jinping looks like Winnie the Pooh. Just say it as a joke. Look how easy it is for us Americans: Donald Trump looks like an orange clown. Your turn.")
Here is the thread: https://twitter.com/neontaster/status/1248266822970941441
Personally I'm very pleased I'm free to call Trump an orange clown if I feel like doing so.
I agree largely. The bigger problem is that increasingly in today's climate people in positions of power are in effect saying: My guy's hate speech is not hate speech. But your guy's hate speech is hate speech and must be banned. Then acting on it.
Its the rabbit hole both sides of politics have gone down. It politicizes everything. And when everything becomes political everything is partisan, polarized, relative to who's side you are on, and frankly, corrupted.
So who do you trust to make the decision about what is hate speech when the above is the climate in society? And that question underlines my position on all of this. Make clear and definite rules especially about threats, aggression, abuse, deliberate flaming, etc. because those things constitute a person's behaviour towards others. And it is always legitimate to police people's behaviour. Opinions are a different matter - unless of course RRF decrees that there will be a clear and definite rule saying there will be no discussion of politics, politicians, political policies, race, religion etc - those hot button issues that invite trouble so are to be avoided at all costs. Then apply them impartially.
But rely in the main on individuals making their individual choices about whom they wish to interact with.
astrosecret
Recovering rollei snob
you missed my point. i was not talking about whether or not something here or there gets changed. frankly i dont really care. carry on and let go, my approach. sorry. good luck changing the world with your posts on an obscure enthusiast analog photography website. i am completely pro banning and censoring anyone who talks about stupid non photography related subjects here. if i wanted political commentary i’d go somewhere else. every post should be on topic in the subforums. if you’d like to talk about your genitals or skin color or which idiot you did or didnt vote for and the mods approve they can create a subforum for that.
sjones
Established
You don’t need to be sanctimonious or holier-than-thou to abhor Nazis; you just need to be a decent person.
You don’t need to give a voice to Nazis; we already know their position. Photography sites are typically not conducive to effective conversion, particularly when dispassionate reason hardly resonates with fanatics by the inherent nature of being a fanatic. It’s not impossible, of course, and I’ve read some inspiring books by former neo-Nazis, but it’s a remarkably complex and timely process…maybe in the PMs, that’s fine; otherwise, you’re just providing a platform for hatred. Seriously, I’m not a “punch a Nazi” person but instead “rehabilitate a Nazi”. Yet, sometimes, impasses are unfortunately reached.
Hatred of bigotry is not the same as bigoted hatred; for the love of God, enough of the egregiously false moral equivalencies.
Words might not break bones, but they inspire and incite prejudice, discrimination, intimidation, violence, and even genocide; that is, hate speech is not passive or benign. See Joseph Goebbels or Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines. How many millions dead before the point is made?
I’ve read Hitler, I’ve read Mussolini, I’ve read Mosely. Oh, and I’ve read volumes about Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, and the Kim dynasty; just so you don’t think I’m a creature of mainstream media. Anyway, I can confidently say that these folks were up to no good, and compromise just wasn’t on the table. There, saved you the trouble...
Yes, we can indulge in relativism, to the point of nihilism if that feeds your kicks, but while “drawing the line” can certainly run into subjective barriers---moral ambiguities are such an inescapable drag---I would hope that we could all agree that hatred is universally bad…if not, then humans should reconsider the right to inhabit this planet any further.
Have a good weekend,
Steve
You don’t need to give a voice to Nazis; we already know their position. Photography sites are typically not conducive to effective conversion, particularly when dispassionate reason hardly resonates with fanatics by the inherent nature of being a fanatic. It’s not impossible, of course, and I’ve read some inspiring books by former neo-Nazis, but it’s a remarkably complex and timely process…maybe in the PMs, that’s fine; otherwise, you’re just providing a platform for hatred. Seriously, I’m not a “punch a Nazi” person but instead “rehabilitate a Nazi”. Yet, sometimes, impasses are unfortunately reached.
Hatred of bigotry is not the same as bigoted hatred; for the love of God, enough of the egregiously false moral equivalencies.
Words might not break bones, but they inspire and incite prejudice, discrimination, intimidation, violence, and even genocide; that is, hate speech is not passive or benign. See Joseph Goebbels or Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines. How many millions dead before the point is made?
I’ve read Hitler, I’ve read Mussolini, I’ve read Mosely. Oh, and I’ve read volumes about Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, and the Kim dynasty; just so you don’t think I’m a creature of mainstream media. Anyway, I can confidently say that these folks were up to no good, and compromise just wasn’t on the table. There, saved you the trouble...
Yes, we can indulge in relativism, to the point of nihilism if that feeds your kicks, but while “drawing the line” can certainly run into subjective barriers---moral ambiguities are such an inescapable drag---I would hope that we could all agree that hatred is universally bad…if not, then humans should reconsider the right to inhabit this planet any further.
Have a good weekend,
Steve
shimokita
白黒
Just cleaning house? hope you keep some gear for personal use... Stay safe...
Exactly.
This is the primary problem with life today; everything has become political, or politically correct.
That's why it is so disappointing to see a beautiful photograph shared on a forum like this one, only to have someone reply with some sort of political comment about it...doesn't matter which side of the fence the comment may be.
I come to this forum and others to get away from that stuff, last thing I want to see is more of it...
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
This, for sure.
Phil Forrest
Archiver
Veteran
Abusive behaviour that hides behind anonymity is a problem, an yet the removal of anonymity is an unsafe alternative. That line of thinking is akin to the big government trend of 'if you're not doing anything wrong, why do you have to hide?' This is a very slippery slope on many levels.
Look at how our data is harvested by giant corporations to be used and sold as they see fit, or how governments collect every text message, phone call and unsecured communication we make. What is politically safe today may be offensive tomorrow.
Privacy and anonymity grant protection. As mentioned earlier, doxxing is a very real threat with potentially deadly results. Being named and shamed for publicly egregious behaviour is one thing, but what if someone takes offense for no good reason? What if you have unfortunately attracted a stalker? Or how about the thousands in China who are under watch for expressing pro-democracy sentiments?
Minimizing abusive behaviour on internet forums is precisely the job of the moderator. Forum members have the responsibility of conducting themselves with respect and good intentions, which fosters a positive environment. Things that step outside of that are up for the moderator to judge.
jarski
Veteran
My little observation or opinion about the politicization in todays world, Western countries especially, is that its a result of mounting problems. Most people would prefer to be nonpolitical through their lives (I believe), but when bad news increases, sides are beginning to taken, echo chambers form, and laws and old norms are getting ignored.
Rayt
Nonplayer Character
Ray T is actually my real name. But I think everyone should coin for him or herself an alias for the internet like a porn name. If I had to choose a porn name it would be Huss Hardan but that’s taken. (Sorry Huss just a joke to lighten the mood but I am sure you have heard that one before).
peterm1
Veteran
Good observation Jarski. I think there is something to this. As the old Chinese curse goes - "May you live in interesting times". We are living in those times with chaotic change everywhere and all the old certainties gone.
Still though, we should not think it has not happened before in history. My reading of history is that this is not wholly unique. Such times came in the past too. Worryingly they often led to war, famine and pestilence as social frameworks fell to pieces.
Archiver
Veteran
Ever since I saw your name, I thought Rayt was some Moroccan or Arabic name! Shows you how much I know about those languages.
I once met a Vietnamese guy named Dinh Duong. Fortunately, he was not a ding dong. Then there's Julius Assmann the old watchmaker, who needed no porn name at all.