Helen Hill finally says Ciao ... it's been Fun

And now for something completely different…

And now for something completely different…

Several times on this site, and even on this thread, members have decried the lack of activity by women here. Helen is known here and elsewhere for her New York-based Leica documentary, portrait, and street photography as told from a woman’s perspective.

Leica USA has just invited submissions for their second “Leica Women Foto Project”. When you read the bylaws for this project, you come across this:

“Leica Camera USA made a conscious decision to launch the ‘Leica Women Foto Project’ and not only encourage women to participate and provide a unique perspective on issues they care about today but also allow men to enter with a project that provides a female perspective on a topic related to today’s social, cultural, or political climate.”

Isn’t there enough male photographic dominance already, without enjoining them to compete with women to “provide a female perspective?” Does this not subtly imply that women photographers are themselves somehow not competent to provide a female perspective? Males also clearly have an advantage when it comes to resources of finances, which enable ability to travel, purchase equipment, hire assistants , etc.
Should not a “Women Photo Project“ be carried out on a level playing field? Just MHO.

(BTW this verbiage about male photographers jumping into this women’s project did not appear in last year‘s Leica Women Project bylaws.)
 
raid said:
I leave this thread for a few days and I see so many posts with so much interesting content! I am lost. Where would I begin here ...
Click to expand...

Don't worry Raid. Go with the flow. It's a bunch of guys sitting around talking nervously, hoping Helen will walk in some time soon.
 
hendriphile said:
Several times on this site, and even on this thread, members have decried the lack of activity by women here. Helen is known here and elsewhere for her New York-based Leica documentary, portrait, and street photography as told from a woman’s perspective.

Leica USA has just invited submissions for their second “Leica Women Foto Project”. When you read the bylaws for this project, you come across this:

“Leica Camera USA made a conscious decision to launch the ‘Leica Women Foto Project’ and not only encourage women to participate and provide a unique perspective on issues they care about today but also allow men to enter with a project that provides a female perspective on a topic related to today’s social, cultural, or political climate.”

Isn’t there enough male photographic dominance already, without enjoining them to compete with women to “provide a female perspective?” Does this not subtly imply that women photographers are themselves somehow not competent to provide a female perspective? Males also clearly have an advantage when it comes to resources of finances, which enable ability to travel, purchase equipment, hire assistants , etc.
Should not a “Women Photo Project“ be carried out on a level playing field? Just MHO.

(BTW this verbiage about male photographers jumping into this women’s project did not appear in last year‘s Leica Women Project bylaws.)
Click to expand...

But why not allow it? Women are quite rightly allowed to compete in every sphere once regarded as traditionally and exclusively "male". And "people who identify as female" are now being constantly shoehorned into areas traditionally belonging to women (and in fact this can happen whether it is fair to biological women or otherwise - ask J. K Rowling and many feminists of an older generation who decry this - at least in certain circumstances where it is demonstrably damaging to women). If both of these things are true then why would you oppose it in principle. What is more, why should we assume that men being involved in this project would work to the disadvantage of women. If it relied upon physical characteristics - height, weight, musculature, physical strength) I would agree. But it does not - it relies purely on technical and creative skill which surely women possess in equal quantity and measure. Indeed they should have a distinct advantage in terms of insider knowledge and experience given the theme of the project.

Should we not be doing something radical - like basing people's contribution on merit, rather than on gender? How foreign that once everyday notion (itself once radical till people become used to it) has become. Or do we just adhere to politically correct memes? If so are we not in effect saying "Women are strong. Women are invincible. Women can do anything. Except compete with men."

Indeed your final sentence "Should not a “Women Photo Project“ be carried out on a level playing field? Just MHO." seems to imply, to me at least, that women are incapable of competing on a true level playing field - i.e. one in which there is no distinction based on gender, race, or anything else. I for one believe they can and already do compete successfully. Oh and by the way if the numbers of women involved are still relatively small that is entirely their choice is individuals. A choice which they are fully entitled to make. I know of no secret cabal of men or any "systemic discrimination" to keep women out. As you say many here constantly speak of how they would love to see more involved.

I feel rather strongly about this kind of issue for this reason. These days the default position seems to be: "We must discriminate in the name of non-discrimination". I am old enough to remember the time when some US General said during the Vietnam war: "We had to destroy the village in order to save the village". I submit that rushing to discriminate in favor of non discrimination is not all that different.

I say all of the above not as a political argument. I say it only as a policy matter. But of course all of this is just IMHO. Others are welcome to have their views.
 
peterm1 said:
But why not allow it? Women are quite rightly allowed to compete in every sphere once regarded as traditionally and exclusively "male". And "people who identify as female" are now being constantly shoehorned into areas traditionally belonging to women (and in fact this can happen whether it is fair to biological women or otherwise - ask J. K Rowling and many feminists of an older generation who decry this - at least in certain circumstances where it is demonstrably damaging to women). If both of these things are true then why would you oppose it in principle. What is more, why should we assume that men being involved in this project would work to the disadvantage of women. If it relied upon physical characteristics - height, weight, musculature, physical strength) I would agree. But it does not - it relies purely on technical and creative skill which surely women possess in equal quantity and measure. Indeed they should have a distinct advantage in terms of insider knowledge and experience given the theme of the project.

Should we not be doing something radical - like basing people's contribution on merit, rather than on gender? How foreign that once everyday notion (itself once radical till people become used to it) has become. Or do we just adhere to politically correct memes? If so are we not in effect saying "Women are strong. Women are invincible. Women can do anything. Except compete with men."

Indeed your final sentence "Should not a “Women Photo Project“ be carried out on a level playing field? Just MHO." seems to imply, to me at least, that women are incapable of competing on a true level playing field - i.e. one in which there is no distinction based on gender, race, or anything else. I for one believe they can and already do compete successfully. Oh and by the way if the numbers of women involved are still relatively small that is entirely their choice is individuals. A choice which they are fully entitled to make. I know of no secret cabal of men or any "systemic discrimination" to keep women out. As you say many here constantly speak of how they would love to see more involved.

I feel rather strongly about this kind of issue for this reason. These days the default position seems to be: "We must discriminate in the name of non-discrimination". I am old enough to remember the time when some US General said during the Vietnam war: "We had to destroy the village in order to save the village". I submit that rushing to discriminate in favor of non discrimination is not all that different.

I say all of the above not as a political argument. I say it only as a policy matter. But of course all of this is just IMHO. Others are welcome to have their views.
Click to expand...

Itself a commentary on the zeitgeist when someone needs to vigorously defend the notion that talent be judged on its merit alone and not obfuscated by irrelevant incidentals of birth.
 
robert blu said:
aug 24, 2020: First announcement about the "Berlinale" (movie festival) for 2021

https://www.berlinale.de/en/press/press-releases/detail_54088.html

Festival Planned as Physical Event / New: Gender-Neutral Performance Awards

Worthwhile to read if interested in discussion about gender and merit
Click to expand...
There are fields of competition where gender/sex differences are important. It's heartening to see a film festival recognise that the visual arts are not one of them.
 
Richard G said:
Don't worry Raid. Go with the flow. It's a bunch of guys sitting around talking nervously, hoping Helen will walk in some time soon.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. Nervous, not at all. More like a bunch of people just talking among friends. Walk in, walk out, shake it all about; many will still be here today and tomorrow.

All the best,
Mike
 
Huss and ko.fe have been behaving themselves and as it's 3 weeks or so I guess they should get some remission of sentence, or time off for good behaviour...


Regards, David
 
peterm1 said:
..... Women are quite rightly allowed to compete in every sphere once regarded as traditionally and exclusively "male". ..... What is more, why should we assume that men being involved in this project would work to the disadvantage of women. ..... it relies purely on technical and creative skill which surely women possess in equal quantity and measure. .....

Should we not be doing something radical - like basing people's contribution on merit, rather than on gender? ..... Or do we just adhere to politically correct memes? If so are we not in effect saying "Women are strong. Women are invincible. Women can do anything. Except compete with men."

..... seems to imply, to me at least, that women are incapable of competing on a true level playing field - i.e. one in which there is no distinction based on gender, race, or anything else. .....

I feel rather strongly about this kind of issue for this reason. These days the default position seems to be: "We must discriminate in the name of non-discrimination". ......

I say all of the above not as a political argument. I say it only as a policy matter. ......
Click to expand...

While I will be one of the first to stand and do something when I see discrimination taking place, I am in total agreement with your rationale as so eloquently put. To disagree with your statement is a form of supporting discrimination based on gender.
 
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