adamr1699
Established
I have been trying to get a hold of a decent user m2 (without self-timer) for quite some time. I keep checking ebay, but they are all quite overpriced. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Thanks
tunalegs
Pretended Artist
Try local camera shops if you have any? I've come across some decent deals on Leicas in shops, whereas internet prices (particularly buy it now listings) are often ridiculous in comparison. Leicas are maybe the only cameras I've seen where prices in shops are often lower than online, usually it's ebay where you can find good deals on cameras and the prices in shops are ridiculous. It will also depend on what you consider overpriced, of course.
Robert Lai
Well-known
Why M2 in particular?
An M4-2 or M4-P will usually be less expensive compared to all of the other mechanical M cameras. Relative to the M2:
They don't have self timers.
You won't need plug adapters for the flash cords.
Hot shoe present.
135mm frame lines present.
Neutral viewfinder color rendition vs the blue tint of the M2.
Less risk of balsam separation in the finder.
Made by your friendly neighbors in Canada.
An M4-2 or M4-P will usually be less expensive compared to all of the other mechanical M cameras. Relative to the M2:
They don't have self timers.
You won't need plug adapters for the flash cords.
Hot shoe present.
135mm frame lines present.
Neutral viewfinder color rendition vs the blue tint of the M2.
Less risk of balsam separation in the finder.
Made by your friendly neighbors in Canada.
michaelwj
----------------
Are the ones on eBay selling? If so then they're not overpriced. If not, make an offer. In the end you're after something quite specific, so the reality is you pay what you need to, or get something else.
mdarnton
Well-known
Another M4-2 vote. At one time I had one of each, and the M2 didn't get a bit of love from me. If it's the self-timer you hate, the M4-2 doesn't have one. Otherwise, think of it as a newer M2 in black with the 135mm frame corners. And a much newer, clearer finder than some camera from 1958.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Contact Youxin Ye ... he may have something.
coogee
Well-known
I never notice my M2 even has a self timer (though it does), it certainly never gets in the way of anything. is it purely an aesthetic/collector thing to not want one? You narrow your options a lot by excluding it. You are definitely paying 'too much' once you stray into all the special blends of rewind buttons and missing self timers etc.
Good luck finding one. In whatever guise, the M2 is superb.
Good luck finding one. In whatever guise, the M2 is superb.
teddy
Jose Morales
If the M2 is in excellent condition, i.e: no major scratches, no haze in finder and all shutter speeds working flawlessly - then how much would you pay for that M2? If I saw a MINT m2 - I would pay from $1000 to $1200. What do you consider overpriced?
One in excellent condition, from $800 to $1000. You get what you are prepared to pay!
My lovely Ex++ M2 from 1962. No scratches - bought from Westlight Photographica Auction for about $1200 AU.
You can try Tamarkin Camera too. Dan is great to deal with.
http://www.tamarkin.com/products/m-series/cameras#used-section
There's an M2 and an m4 in the used section. I have bought several lenses and cameras from Tamarkin - not a problem.
One in excellent condition, from $800 to $1000. You get what you are prepared to pay!
My lovely Ex++ M2 from 1962. No scratches - bought from Westlight Photographica Auction for about $1200 AU.
You can try Tamarkin Camera too. Dan is great to deal with.
http://www.tamarkin.com/products/m-series/cameras#used-section
There's an M2 and an m4 in the used section. I have bought several lenses and cameras from Tamarkin - not a problem.
PhotoGog
-
Have patience. It's possible to pick up a beauty on eBay. I won an auction on an incredible M2 (no timer, lever rewind, and serial number placing it from 1959) back in January. I won the auction over serval other bidders at US$750. Cosmetically near mint with perfect vulcanite and only a few marks to the brass top, but no dints or scratches. It was owned by a pro in NYC for decades. Everything seemed in fine working order with shutter speeds OK to the ear, but the seller was honest about not using it much in that time so I decided to spend the money and send it off to Youxin Ye for a full CLA. This led to replacing one of the curtains and the optional extra investment of replacing the viewfinder window to a modern multi coated one. All up, the service with return courier between Sydney and Boston cost another $700 (a decision not made lightly) but now I have an M2 that easily beats any of the listings on eBay I've seen sell for over US$1500. If it helps, I bought mine around the Xmas and NY period and I did notice many more listings and, conversely, less competition from bidders at the time. I figure because during the holiday period sellers have more time to finally list their gear while buyers have less cash to spend after Xmas - so a good time to be buying!
PhotoGog
-
Forgot to add, don't worry about the vulcanite. It's so cheap to replace (with or without a full CLA). So long as you don't care about having a full original specimen. Plenty of bidders will otherwise be put off by the cosmetics of a great brass body but with missing or damaged vulcanite. These can be great deals if you spend the little extra to replace the vulcanite.
LarsAC
Established
Bought mine on ebay for 200 EURs from a dealer wirh return policy. Leather was worn, replaced it. Finder was a bit hazy, sent off for CLA and have a great M2 in good condition now. Be patient.
Lars
Lars
adamr1699
Established
thanks all, I appreciate it!
zuiko85
Veteran
Anyway, compared to used prices on Leica lenses, the price of a used mechanical M body of your choice is just an afterthought.
ACullen
Well-known
Another thumbs up for the M2. It's the only Leica M I've handled and it feels so good. I paid £549 for my very good condition copy ( Peter Loy London) . It had only a few minor scratches to the top plate. Otherwise pretty flawless .
leicapixie
Well-known
I have very early M2 no self timer. sort of button rewind( it fell of)
my viewfinder exceptionally clear and bright.
I would still say go for M-4-2. M2-P for PC plugs, hot shoe and 135mm frame. One day one might find a reasonable priced 135mm I did!
My original M2 no longer has spare parts for many things!
The Push Button rewind, the Shutter is slightly smaller or shorter in height., and there again probably no parts available.
It is useable and not for sale!
my viewfinder exceptionally clear and bright.
I would still say go for M-4-2. M2-P for PC plugs, hot shoe and 135mm frame. One day one might find a reasonable priced 135mm I did!
My original M2 no longer has spare parts for many things!
The Push Button rewind, the Shutter is slightly smaller or shorter in height., and there again probably no parts available.
It is useable and not for sale!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
I have both an M2 and an M4-P (well, and temporarily another M2, an M3, an M4-2, another M4-P and an M6) and the great advantage of the M2 (and M3) is lack of rangefinder patch flare-out. This doesn't matter until it happens, and it doesn't happen often, but when it does, you've got a scale-focus Leica.
What's the objection to the self timer?
Cheers,
R.
What's the objection to the self timer?
Cheers,
R.
Robert Lai
Well-known
With the huge number of stories of people getting themselves hurt or killed taking selfies with their cell phone, you would think that a self timer is mandatory. Yes, they often jam if they haven't been used in a very, very long time. But, guess what? Such a camera needs CLA overall.
Virtually every Leica camera that I've bought (and I only buy used) has required an overhaul. So, plan on the expense of having a service done on any camera that you acquire, unless there is documented recent servicing. Even my M7 I sent to Leica NJ to have the optical film reader and the flare reduction optics placed in, along with a general CLA.
Parts availability for the M2 and M3 are starting to be a problem. I bought an M2 (has ST and lever rewind) which had been a demo camera for a German camera store. It had stayed in the back room self for decades and was finally sold when the store closed down. It looked cosmetically in EX+ condition at least, but functionally it was a basket case due to disuse and congealing of the lubricants. So, I sent it to Gus Lazzari. This was along with a truly mint M3 in box with L seal, which I obtained at ridiculous prices from a Tamarkin Camera Auction, and a mint minus M5.
Two years later, he finally finished servicing all of these cameras (he has a seriously long waiting list, as does Don Goldberg). Prior to sending the cameras back to me, Gus mentioned that the M2's self timer pan screw had been marred by someone using the wrong tool to remove it in the past. So, I searched high and low for such a screw. The one available on ebay had corrosion on it. It must have been taken from a camera that fell into salt water in Japan.
Finally I called Don Goldberg. After begging and pleading on my knees, he relented to selling me an original Leica M2/M3 self timer pan screw, new old stock. Even he is running out of these things, and Leica no longer makes them. So, had I not been a good customer of his in the past, I doubt that he would have sold it to me. Don also gave me the admonitions:
"It's a left handed thread. Also, if you don't have the correct tool to mate with the two divots in the screw head, you WILL mar it". I had Don send it directly to Gus.
The cost of servicing these cameras and an MR-4 light meter (composite of two: one beautiful case with battery acid corroded circuitry, and another with an ugly case but intact circuit board) would have allowed me to buy a very nice condition M6.
So, the moral of the story is to mentally budget $500 or so for overhauling these cameras. Then be prepared to wait. And, sometimes the M3 and M2 no longer have parts available.
Hence, my original suggestion to go chase after an M4-2 or M4-P unless you really have some pressing need to have an M2.
Virtually every Leica camera that I've bought (and I only buy used) has required an overhaul. So, plan on the expense of having a service done on any camera that you acquire, unless there is documented recent servicing. Even my M7 I sent to Leica NJ to have the optical film reader and the flare reduction optics placed in, along with a general CLA.
Parts availability for the M2 and M3 are starting to be a problem. I bought an M2 (has ST and lever rewind) which had been a demo camera for a German camera store. It had stayed in the back room self for decades and was finally sold when the store closed down. It looked cosmetically in EX+ condition at least, but functionally it was a basket case due to disuse and congealing of the lubricants. So, I sent it to Gus Lazzari. This was along with a truly mint M3 in box with L seal, which I obtained at ridiculous prices from a Tamarkin Camera Auction, and a mint minus M5.
Two years later, he finally finished servicing all of these cameras (he has a seriously long waiting list, as does Don Goldberg). Prior to sending the cameras back to me, Gus mentioned that the M2's self timer pan screw had been marred by someone using the wrong tool to remove it in the past. So, I searched high and low for such a screw. The one available on ebay had corrosion on it. It must have been taken from a camera that fell into salt water in Japan.
Finally I called Don Goldberg. After begging and pleading on my knees, he relented to selling me an original Leica M2/M3 self timer pan screw, new old stock. Even he is running out of these things, and Leica no longer makes them. So, had I not been a good customer of his in the past, I doubt that he would have sold it to me. Don also gave me the admonitions:
"It's a left handed thread. Also, if you don't have the correct tool to mate with the two divots in the screw head, you WILL mar it". I had Don send it directly to Gus.
The cost of servicing these cameras and an MR-4 light meter (composite of two: one beautiful case with battery acid corroded circuitry, and another with an ugly case but intact circuit board) would have allowed me to buy a very nice condition M6.
So, the moral of the story is to mentally budget $500 or so for overhauling these cameras. Then be prepared to wait. And, sometimes the M3 and M2 no longer have parts available.
Hence, my original suggestion to go chase after an M4-2 or M4-P unless you really have some pressing need to have an M2.
Fraser
Well-known
Which country are you in?
Robert Lai
Well-known
Sorry to bring this up, but if you're thinking of buying from Sherry Krauter, read this first:
http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160512&highlight=lady+from+the+east
There are only few repair people that I would trust. Most of them are specialists in their field, or work only on one brand.
Zeiss Ikon - Henry Scherer. Yes, his wait list is over 5 years long - for good reason.
Nikon F, F2 - Sover Wong. I won't even start on the rotten "service" my Nikons have had from the US repair centers.
Rolleiflex - Harry Fleenor, or Krikor Malarian. I don't know if Krimar is still working. His web site is down, and no answer from the phone number that I last used.
Leica M or LTM, or Leica clones (not Soviet) - Don Goldberg.
Gus Lazzari does them too, as well as other cameras such as my Voigtlander RF 6x9 camera.
Youxin is often mentioned. I have used him in the past, but there are some things that he cannot do. He is honest enough to tell you up front.
Canon FD - Ken Oikawa.
http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160512&highlight=lady+from+the+east
There are only few repair people that I would trust. Most of them are specialists in their field, or work only on one brand.
Zeiss Ikon - Henry Scherer. Yes, his wait list is over 5 years long - for good reason.
Nikon F, F2 - Sover Wong. I won't even start on the rotten "service" my Nikons have had from the US repair centers.
Rolleiflex - Harry Fleenor, or Krikor Malarian. I don't know if Krimar is still working. His web site is down, and no answer from the phone number that I last used.
Leica M or LTM, or Leica clones (not Soviet) - Don Goldberg.
Gus Lazzari does them too, as well as other cameras such as my Voigtlander RF 6x9 camera.
Youxin is often mentioned. I have used him in the past, but there are some things that he cannot do. He is honest enough to tell you up front.
Canon FD - Ken Oikawa.
adamr1699
Established
Thanks again,
I probably should mention that this isn't my first leica. I want an M2 because it was my favorite I've owned. My first M camera was an M2, than an M3 DS and now an M4. I'm in the process of selling my M4, the reason that I want an M2 over the M4 is the film advance mechanism. I know it sounds stupid but I really prefer the removable spool of the M2/M3s. As to the self timer, I don't want one because Im making a grip that wouldn't work with the timer lever there.
I probably should mention that this isn't my first leica. I want an M2 because it was my favorite I've owned. My first M camera was an M2, than an M3 DS and now an M4. I'm in the process of selling my M4, the reason that I want an M2 over the M4 is the film advance mechanism. I know it sounds stupid but I really prefer the removable spool of the M2/M3s. As to the self timer, I don't want one because Im making a grip that wouldn't work with the timer lever there.