Help! Rangefinder alignment

[shodoman]

Hey all. Just got my brand new M 240 in the mail, it's incredible. Everything is great except my shots are slightly out of focus when I use the rangefinder. If I focus using focus peaking they are perfect.

I find it hard to believe that a brand new camera with warranty would have an alignment problem but that's what it sounds like. Is there any possibility it is a lens related issue? Unfortunately, I only have one lens so I can't compare with another. It's the 40mm summicron-c. I had a CLA about a year ago and the images look great but I'm not sure if there could be alignment issues with the lens?

Any advice would be great... Thanks!

 

[mfunnell]

My guess is that it's the lens (understand, though, that's just a guess). When I picked up my M240 all my lenses were aligned with the RF except my Summilux 75mm/f1.4 which had been CLAd when I bought it. Once I had Camera Clinic (the local Leica service agent here in Oz) adjust the lens to digital focus standards (where tolerances are tighter than for film focus) everything was good. This wasn't a matter of the 75 being off by a little bit, it was out by a lot (yet still worked fine with film). I'm pretty sure, without being able to prove anything, that it was the result of the CLA, with adjustments to film focusing standards just not being close enough for digital.

...Mike

 

[shodoman]

That makes sense. It is pretty close, but when shooting wide open it is off by 6 inches or so. Sherry Krauter did the CLA so maybe I will reach out and see if needs further adjustment.

 

[peterm1]

I am a bit frustrated with digital Leica Ms. I had trouble with my M8 rangefinder getting out of whack for no apparent reason (no bumps, no drops, no nothing) although it was spot on when I got it. I then had it professionally adjusted about a year ago and it was fine, but I think it is drifting off once more.

The internet has lots of posts on people complaining similarly although I have never yet seen a suitable explanation of why. For example I never had this issue with either my M3 or my M4P, yet my camera guy says the rangefinder mechanism is the same. I know some say that digital sensors need better tolerances - if so this is a problem for mechanical rangefinders which apparently cannot provide them with certainty over time.

I have posted here previously on how to check focus on a Leica M and how far it is out and how to determine if it is your lens or your camera. A brief explanation is contained in this post here: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145110

You might wish to try something similar to that described above to confirm if the problem is with your camera or with the lens. It's actually easier with your camera it seems to me as you can set up a target at a known distance and use focus peaking to compare the range setting on the lens barrel to see if the lens really is in focus using focus peaking at the same distance marked on the barrel. If focus peaking and the range marked on the lens do not coincide, then the problem is most likely your lens. If it is, then the lens would seem to be OK and the camera's rangefinder is suspect.

 

[shodoman]

From Sherry:

"The age of total interchangeability is dead with digital. You need to call Leica camera and see if they will “marry” the lens to the camera, because it was really made for the CL and not an M camera. If you were using an M film camera, it might work or not."

 

[Ben Z]

In fact the 40 Cron was made for the CL and has a different rangefinder cam than M lenses. Years ago it was rumored that the CL lenses would not focus as well on M bodies (yet a lot of people say they do--I've never personally owned one).

My M8 rangefinder focused all my lenses perfectly. My M9 arrived way off. I spent the better part of a day adjusting it, not only the infinity mark, I had to adjust the arm sweep too because the close focus was off even when infinity was spot-on. Once I did so, it never drifted. I have a 135 Tele-Elmar that was quite a bit off, but the other lenses were fine so I knew it was the lens. Sent it in for adjustment but it came back just as bad. So I did it myself and now it's perfect. My M240 arrived perfectly aligned. Maybe the rangefinder is better, or maybe Leica's adjusting protocols and/or calibration equipment has been improved. Either way, I read of far less issues with the M240 rangefinder than the M9 or M8.

 

[Huss]

From Sherry:

"The age of total interchangeability is dead with digital. You need to call Leica camera and see if they will “marry” the lens to the camera, because it was really made for the CL and not an M camera. If you were using an M film camera, it might work or not."

Fortunately/unfortunately Sherry is right.
Upside is there are so many great M lenses out there, and why not get one now that you have the M240?
$500 gets you a really nice used early Summicron 50, $650-ish gets a really nice Zeiss Planar 50 ZM, $750-ish gets a really nice Zeiss Sonnar 50 ZM etc
I use all those and they all are great with zero issues on my M-E.
The 40mm Leica/Minolta lens really was not designed for the M series cameras, which also explains why none have 40mm frame lines.

 

[shodoman]

The lens is the Leica version made in Germany , not the minolta one. I understand it was made for the CL. I just love the lens, it draws beautifully. It's great shooting with 40mm for a one lens kit, it's the perfect normal and the frame lines don't really matter that much and If I need something perfectly aligned I can use the liveview.

I asked Leica and they said they could align it to the M240 so I sent it in. I'm just glad it wasn't the rangefinder in the 240 that was the issue.

I didn't get a chance to play around with the combo that much yet so all I have is a boring cat photo but this is wide open at iso 3200.

 

[Johann Espiritu]

Try testing it this way:

Use a tripod and focus on a still subject using the rangefinder. Check focus on live view. Then do the reverse, focusing in live view first, then checking how it looks in the rangefinder. If you get the same result, then you're good. If either gives different results, then there is some sort of misalignment somewhere, whether its on the RF or the lens. In that case, try another lens and see if you get the same results to determine which one needs adjustment.

Good luck!

 

[shodoman]

After verbally saying they could adjust the lens and waiting three weeks with it, Leica says they can't (most likely won't) adjust it. Pretty sad for such a great lens...

 

[jaapv]

From Sherry:

"The age of total interchangeability is dead with digital. You need to call Leica camera and see if they will “marry” the lens to the camera, because it was really made for the CL and not an M camera. If you were using an M film camera, it might work

All lenses and cameras are adjusted to common standard, albeit with more narrow tolerances in the digital age. The reason C mount lenses can be off is because they have a simplified focusing mechanism. Leica has warned about using them on M cameras from the very beginning.

 

[shodoman]

Just a shame, it focused perfectly on my M6 TTL so I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that it "doesn't focus correctly on M cameras.

 

[jaapv]

It is a bit of a lottery. Many of them are fine, some are diffucult. I would send mine to Will van Manen if it would misfocus Which it doesn't. In the USA I would try my luck with DAG.

 

[peterm1]

Its odd. You know I think I never had a problem with any lens I used on my film Ms - an M3 and an M4P. Native Leica M lenses, Leica LTM lenses on an adapter, Canon LTM lenses, even a Russian lens or two on adapters. They all focused OK or very well. Now with my M8 its a struggle to get sharp focus. Perhaps digital sensors require greater focusing accuracy. Perhaps my expectations have changed. Perhaps its my eyes (which indisputably are not what they were) or perhaps its the technology - although my "camera guy" says the rangefinder and its cams are the same in all Leica Ms.

And as I have recounted elsewhere I have found that my M8 focusing has tended to drift over time. It started by being spot on when I first bought the camera. Then for no apparent reason it began back focusing - in fact, it was radical back focusing. No bumps, no drops, just an inexplicable change of focus in quite a big way - 6 inches or more at close range (the problem seemed to be the close focusing adjustment as infinity focus was reasonable and of course any misalignment is more apparent at close distances anyway). Then I had the camera professionally adjusted after first spending an afternoon shooting test shots to provide to the technician to identify how far off it was. Then after a few months of use I think its drifting once more as I am getting less "keepers". Weird. Confusing and bloody frustrating.

Does anyone know for sure whats the story with digital Ms? One thing I know is that there are huhndreds if not thousands of posts on the internet about rangefinder accuracy problems with these cameras so I suspect its not just me.

The truth is I would love to love my M8 more than I do, but for now its a bit of an exercise in ambivalence.

 

[maddoc]

I bet that not the lens is off but the cam-follower in your camera is not 100% exactly positioned in the top of the lens mount. This doesn`t matter with a lens cam that just moves in and outwards (as with normal M-mount lenses) while focusing because the cam travel will be identical at all positions of the cam ring. However, in case of the Summicron-C the control curve of the cam rotates while focusing and the cam-follower travel will become dependent of the location on the lens cam. The slightest shift to the right or left will result in a different cam follower travel and therefore focus indication in the RF.

 

[Ben Z]

I bet that not the lens is off but the cam-follower in your camera is not 100% exactly positioned in the top of the lens mount. This doesn`t matter with a lens cam that just moves in and outwards (as with normal M-mount lenses) while focusing because the cam travel will be identical at all positions of the cam ring. However, in case of the Summicron-C the control curve of the cam rotates while focusing and the cam-follower travel will become dependent of the location on the lens cam. The slightest shift to the right or left will result in a different cam follower travel and therefore focus indication in the RF.

TTBOMK the M lenses where the cam moves in and out axially are the 90's and 135's (maybe the 75 Summilux, I forgot now). The rest of them all have sloped circumferential cams. The ones on the CL lenses however are steeper, calibrated for the CL rangefinder design. They were said to be iffy on film bodies but probably the less stringent tolerance of film made it passable in many cases. That's much less likely to be the case with digital sensors.

 

[maddoc]

TTBOMK the M lenses where the cam moves in and out axially are the 90's and 135's (maybe the 75 Summilux, I forgot now). The rest of them all have sloped circumferential cams. The ones on the CL lenses however are steeper, calibrated for the CL rangefinder design. They were said to be iffy on film bodies but probably the less stringent tolerance of film made it passable in many cases. That's much less likely to be the case with digital sensors.

Focus-cam of my former 28/2.8 M-Rokkor, no sloped circumferential cam. (The moving cam is the brass part)

Focus-cam of my J-12 (LTM), no sloped circumferrential cam.

 

[shodoman]

I think the summicron-c is slopped. Mine is being shipping back to me today but you can see a picture of one here:

 

[shodoman]

Went to my local camera store and tried two other lenses - both were not focusing properly so that settles that. Since my summicron-c focused accurately on my M6 I'm sure it will be just fine. Now when it comes back I'll try and horizontally align the rangefinder because I have no patience for Leica. I'll just have to send it in if I can't get it myself.