CliveC
Well-known
I've decided I want to dabble in panoramic photos and the consensus seems to be that the Horizon 202 is the most economical way to do it with acceptable results.
I am now shopping eBay for one (and will keep an eye out at the local camera shows, though I've never seen one in person).
Are the accessories (handle and filters) important to the camera? Anything I should look out for that are issues specific to the Horizon? It would be difficult to check for light leaks I expect.
I am now shopping eBay for one (and will keep an eye out at the local camera shows, though I've never seen one in person).
Are the accessories (handle and filters) important to the camera? Anything I should look out for that are issues specific to the Horizon? It would be difficult to check for light leaks I expect.
stompyq
Well-known
Don't over spend and also keep your expectations low. I've owned two over the years. The first one was fine just that the lens was not sharp for me. Now I was trying to shoot wide open most of the time so it was operator error. Stopped down the lens was fine. I got rid of that one when I ran in to some financial difficulties several years ago. Bought another one last year and that was a nightmare. It ripped the sprocket holes on my film several times and also randomly leaked light so I returned it. In either case I never used the handle or the filters.
Rangefinderfreak
Well-known
Horizon is a nice camera, you can play with the curved lines etc. Some of the shutter springs in horizon are of "variying quality" so the shutter will be erratic. ALWAYS store the shutter unwound. One easy hint with the sharpness: Use dymo labeling tape (black) on the film rails to change the focus distance... I have it always so that the ends are focused nearer, therefore you get a nice "natural unsharpnes" to distant objects that are placed in the corners.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40146285@N08/4586932763/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40146285@N08/4586932763/
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
I have had several Horizon 202's over the years. It is a bit hit and miss as to how well they work. The current one seems to behave well with no ripped sprockets. They are a bitch to load though and if you mis-load it will create problems. If you can get one cheap (my latest one was $ 100 at a swap meet). The bottom grip is almost essential if you don't want your knuckles intruding in the frame. You can make your own though - just a 1" diameter wood dowel (cut it off a broom stick!) and a 1/4" 20 tip screw in the top end. Works fine. The filters are more trouble than they are worth.
You can get them serviced if needed - but most problems seems to occur from inactivity as the lubricants stiffens up. At f2.8 the lens is not supersharp - but stopped down to 5.6 it is fine. One advantage is that you can handhold it at very slow speeds too - the slit sweeps across the film in a narrow band so camera shake is more localized.
Shooting a moving object against the rotation "compacts" the subject considerably> This is from San Francisco last May. Probably 1/8's and f11. Short wheelbase cable car. Adox Silvermax @ 100 iso, developed in home made Beutler developer.
One caveat with 202's - if you use movie stock as your film (Kodak XX/Orwo etc) I have found that the sprockets ar slightly different and it can "bunch" up the film. Not every time - but occasionally it will do it. Don't try to re-load on the go - sit down, have a coffee and do it slowly!
alienmeatsack
Well-known
I purchased my 202 last year and had the same questions. I knew I wanted a panoramic swing lens camera but wasn't sure what to look for.
Here is my experience/thoughts.
The handle, while sometimes useful for holding the camera steady and holding the filters, is unnecessary. I used it once and have never needed to use it again.
Filters, never touched them. Way too hard to put into place and way too easy to lose. I never needed them either anyway.
Leaks, I don't know if that is really a concern. The way the film runs through the camera and how the back fits, leaks are really not an issue in back (that I've experienced). Banding is more of an issue based on how smoothly your shutter system works. What you do need to look for is one that works smoothly, consistently and does not eat your film. And sadly, those are things you only figure out when you get one.
Make sure the viewsight is clean and clear. It doesn't have to be perfect like any viewfinder, just working. Also make sure the bubble level works. It makes taking nice even shots much much simpler. You'll find you ignore it most of the time but there are times when it comes in handy. I think I shoot my 202 from the hip, gripping it on the outside edges and using the bubble on top to site in my shots quite often.
I suggest you don't pay over $200 USD for one, a nice clean working 202 can be had for $150-175 USD on eBay. (Not sure what the conversion is to CAD.)
Things to consider... The film path on these is aggressive. You have 2 places to run film under, one big hump over, and it has very strong ratchet sprockets that can easily rip films. So, when you do get one, try to avoid expensive, rare films and anything with a thin base until you get the hang of it.
Make a note of what film is in it and how many shots you should get. When you get near the end of the roll, advance each frame very carefully. If it resists even a tiny bit, stop and be done with it and rewind the roll. Probably 75% of my rips are from end of roll issues where the strong ratcheting system pulls the film across the sprocket wheels and tears it.
If you hand roll your film and you know you will be using that roll(s) for the 202, make sure to tape the ends extra well to the spool so the film advance does not pull it lose. I use painters tape (the blue stuff) and tape it so it's not coming off without my help. And since hand rolled is a little more iffy as far as when you reach the end, just be careful. Like I said that film advance ratcheting system eats film left and right.
When rewinding, sometimes, especially if there's pressure from a partial frame advance, the "Rewind" release button can be a bit difficult to press in. I keep a small tool in my bag that gives me a little extra umpf to press it in case I'm mid-advance when I hit the end. Remember as I said above, if you force the film advance, you will most likely tear the film.
I know my post covered use tips as well as shopping tips but I hope they help.
Here is my experience/thoughts.
The handle, while sometimes useful for holding the camera steady and holding the filters, is unnecessary. I used it once and have never needed to use it again.
Filters, never touched them. Way too hard to put into place and way too easy to lose. I never needed them either anyway.
Leaks, I don't know if that is really a concern. The way the film runs through the camera and how the back fits, leaks are really not an issue in back (that I've experienced). Banding is more of an issue based on how smoothly your shutter system works. What you do need to look for is one that works smoothly, consistently and does not eat your film. And sadly, those are things you only figure out when you get one.
Make sure the viewsight is clean and clear. It doesn't have to be perfect like any viewfinder, just working. Also make sure the bubble level works. It makes taking nice even shots much much simpler. You'll find you ignore it most of the time but there are times when it comes in handy. I think I shoot my 202 from the hip, gripping it on the outside edges and using the bubble on top to site in my shots quite often.
I suggest you don't pay over $200 USD for one, a nice clean working 202 can be had for $150-175 USD on eBay. (Not sure what the conversion is to CAD.)
Things to consider... The film path on these is aggressive. You have 2 places to run film under, one big hump over, and it has very strong ratchet sprockets that can easily rip films. So, when you do get one, try to avoid expensive, rare films and anything with a thin base until you get the hang of it.
Make a note of what film is in it and how many shots you should get. When you get near the end of the roll, advance each frame very carefully. If it resists even a tiny bit, stop and be done with it and rewind the roll. Probably 75% of my rips are from end of roll issues where the strong ratcheting system pulls the film across the sprocket wheels and tears it.
If you hand roll your film and you know you will be using that roll(s) for the 202, make sure to tape the ends extra well to the spool so the film advance does not pull it lose. I use painters tape (the blue stuff) and tape it so it's not coming off without my help. And since hand rolled is a little more iffy as far as when you reach the end, just be careful. Like I said that film advance ratcheting system eats film left and right.
When rewinding, sometimes, especially if there's pressure from a partial frame advance, the "Rewind" release button can be a bit difficult to press in. I keep a small tool in my bag that gives me a little extra umpf to press it in case I'm mid-advance when I hit the end. Remember as I said above, if you force the film advance, you will most likely tear the film.
I know my post covered use tips as well as shopping tips but I hope they help.
Oren Grad
Well-known
One option is to keep an eye on the Lomography website and buy a new Horizon Perfekt when they have it on sale. A few months back they had a sale with the price under $250. With new Lomography-branded product you get a 14-day return privilege and a 2-year warranty with any necessary returns handled within the US.
I've found the handle useful, but have never used the filters. As always, YMMV.
I've found the handle useful, but have never used the filters. As always, YMMV.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Cosina used to make a Ball grip for the Bessa R and Besa T. It works very well on the 202 - like a manual ball head. Difficult to find now - but you could take a golf-ball and drill a hole into it - tap it for 1/4"- 20 tpi and run a matching screw through it. It does make it easier to level the camera - using the "bubble" in the finder.
Leica R6, 35f4 Curtagon PC lens at closest focus.
Rangefinderfreak
Well-known
hah, lot of info here... I add yet some: I use a soft release on the shutter button, load the Horizon with return button down so I can draw the film enough thru so to have enough leader to fiddle with, then I bend the end of film to go in the take up grooves and take up spool, then I just "rewind the film" while door open so it wil become taut. close the door and go... I modified the filters so I have one dark red infrared filter and one polarizer ( from beaten up raybans... hehe)
gdmcclintock
Well-known
I'll sell you mine for $100 plus shipping. I don't use it anymore. Too many cameras, not enough time....
stompyq
Well-known
Got to love this place. To the OP that's a good deal and I would take it if I were still looking for one
CliveC
Well-known
alienmeatsack
Well-known
Lots of good advice AND a great offer on the 202. FTW 
Clive, sounds like your work has been done for you. Get that camera and get to shooting!
Tom, that's an interesting idea. I wonder if I could make something similar and useful using a round drawer pull. I've usually held the camera on teh sides and just keep my fingers down flat and closest to the edges as possible. Not a camera one shoots with gloves on hand-held. The knob would be a lot easier to stuff into the bag too for when I'm out. I may have to see if i can figure this out for gloved shooting.
Clive, sounds like your work has been done for you. Get that camera and get to shooting!Tom, that's an interesting idea. I wonder if I could make something similar and useful using a round drawer pull. I've usually held the camera on teh sides and just keep my fingers down flat and closest to the edges as possible. Not a camera one shoots with gloves on hand-held. The knob would be a lot easier to stuff into the bag too for when I'm out. I may have to see if i can figure this out for gloved shooting.
tsiklonaut
Well-known
Been on the Horizon market for a while too since just can't afford a proper MF panoramic swinger, let alone a 135 Noblex.
I'm not sure if to get a 202 or a S3 Pro or a Perfekt.
I've read somewhere the later models tend to have less sharp lenses than the original 202, yet the mechanics are slightly better on the newer models. Can anyone confirm this?
I'm not sure if to get a 202 or a S3 Pro or a Perfekt.
I've read somewhere the later models tend to have less sharp lenses than the original 202, yet the mechanics are slightly better on the newer models. Can anyone confirm this?
brbo
Well-known
I read about that S3 is not sharp at f16 (from europanorama user here on RFF?). I only have Horizon 202 and I think that lens on this one is crazy sharp. 95% of the time I shoot it at f8-f16, I have no idea how sharp it is at wider apertures. Maybe the change in S3 was to improve on performance at wider apertures? Anyway, if S3 would indeed be a little less sharp in side-by-side comparison at some aperture it might not be such a big problem.
tsiklonaut
Well-known
That's some excellent panoramic shots, thanks for the info!
Will look into both then - 202 and S3 Pro. I'd love the better shutter timings on the S3 Pro but the older 202 seems like it's a more proven tool.
Will look into both then - 202 and S3 Pro. I'd love the better shutter timings on the S3 Pro but the older 202 seems like it's a more proven tool.
kennylovrin
Well-known
Is getting a Horizen from Lomography idiotic? I've been interested in panoramic shots for a while, and right now I started browsing cameras. Can't quite work out what is to prefer etc. But I do see that Lomography sells a few Horizon models..
Also, I find that the swing lens photos I've seen often has a strange "curvature" that XPan shots doesn't. Are there any other cameras that works like the XPan but are slightly cheaper?
Also, I find that the swing lens photos I've seen often has a strange "curvature" that XPan shots doesn't. Are there any other cameras that works like the XPan but are slightly cheaper?
europanorama
Well-known
I have here a thread about adding dymotape(0.2mm if i dont err, 0.25 would suit for closer focussing and infinity could be a problem.
Since the lens is set to infinity or hyperfocus(who knows, official DOF-table is not true at all) it depends whether the lens is sharp at fstop x or y.
to test use far aways subjects. tested only with dymotape i can say: set to f5.6/8 to get enough sharpness-resolution. for more DOF stop down to 8 or 11(s3pro) if you go to f16 diffraction will reduce resolution. tested at 5m versus horizon 202(also with
dymotape).
so for horizon 202(if you have a good one or if it was in the hands of a panorama-cam-specialist-repairman) you can go
from 5.6/8 to 16 also without tape. 5.6/8 depends how near foreground is.
the reason to opt for s3pro is this: it has 1/30 as slowest time on quick rotation. together with DOF-enlarging dymotape
one can get marvellous indoors or low-ligh-shots when people are present. avoid f16 of you want to enlarge big.
unsharpness can be seen on very small details in the range of Millimeters at 5m of you check with 30x loupe. a lot of
"experts" deny my findings. it would be nice if there are s3pro around with perfect lens and mine is a
"Flaschenboden". sorry pbase-test-site has been closed by them. until the opposite of my findings is not proven there
is only one solution to solve the f16-problem. replacing s3pro-lens by a horizon 202-lens.
202-con:
In opposite to the old metallic horizont with its metallic shutter-button-mechanisme, the one for both 202 and s3pro
are plastic and wobbling around. to shoot with cable-release with 202 is a real pain. if shutter is cocked and cable is
touched camera will fire unwantedly. mechanisme on s3pro is similar but a bit better. i would not try to cock the
shutter after each shot but instead right BEFORE the shots.
Thats why on 202 i have glued a shutter-button-stabilizer-pipe around it glued also the cylinder of an air-cable-release.
A universal solution to have choices for releasing would be better.
When shooting an event with nearby fire or heat the plastic air-cable-release would soften, shooting impossible. found
out on all metallic widelux 1500. that cam/production has a drama-history too. see it in my rotating panoramic
camera-forum at delphi-forums.
when choosing one of the horizon-cams pls be aware that
sometimes-technical data are wrong online. e.g. someone telling s3pro same as "perfect" which is untrue. perfect has
1/500 with resulting shift of exposures. forget compakt
alltogether. that was a crazy idea of some lomo "Spinners". panocam with two exposure-times only 1/60 and 1/2 and fixed f8! e.g widelux 1500 has only 3 exposure times which is a great pain when only 1/250, 1/60 and 1/8 is available. try to stop down with 1/60(1/8 needs tripod) to get more DOF. long lens 50mm with ltd. DOF is a problem alone despite focus-option.
focussing below 5m result in unsharp images. this problem is wonderfully solved with noblex (5x12)-cameras, be it
focussing- and small slit or special filters(i tested it).
Focussing on rotatary cam also wonderfully solved on roundshot 65/70/220. slit is moved to nearer distance to lens in a asymmteric circle.
Since the lens is set to infinity or hyperfocus(who knows, official DOF-table is not true at all) it depends whether the lens is sharp at fstop x or y.
to test use far aways subjects. tested only with dymotape i can say: set to f5.6/8 to get enough sharpness-resolution. for more DOF stop down to 8 or 11(s3pro) if you go to f16 diffraction will reduce resolution. tested at 5m versus horizon 202(also with
dymotape).
so for horizon 202(if you have a good one or if it was in the hands of a panorama-cam-specialist-repairman) you can go
from 5.6/8 to 16 also without tape. 5.6/8 depends how near foreground is.
the reason to opt for s3pro is this: it has 1/30 as slowest time on quick rotation. together with DOF-enlarging dymotape
one can get marvellous indoors or low-ligh-shots when people are present. avoid f16 of you want to enlarge big.
unsharpness can be seen on very small details in the range of Millimeters at 5m of you check with 30x loupe. a lot of
"experts" deny my findings. it would be nice if there are s3pro around with perfect lens and mine is a
"Flaschenboden". sorry pbase-test-site has been closed by them. until the opposite of my findings is not proven there
is only one solution to solve the f16-problem. replacing s3pro-lens by a horizon 202-lens.
202-con:
In opposite to the old metallic horizont with its metallic shutter-button-mechanisme, the one for both 202 and s3pro
are plastic and wobbling around. to shoot with cable-release with 202 is a real pain. if shutter is cocked and cable is
touched camera will fire unwantedly. mechanisme on s3pro is similar but a bit better. i would not try to cock the
shutter after each shot but instead right BEFORE the shots.
Thats why on 202 i have glued a shutter-button-stabilizer-pipe around it glued also the cylinder of an air-cable-release.
A universal solution to have choices for releasing would be better.
When shooting an event with nearby fire or heat the plastic air-cable-release would soften, shooting impossible. found
out on all metallic widelux 1500. that cam/production has a drama-history too. see it in my rotating panoramic
camera-forum at delphi-forums.
when choosing one of the horizon-cams pls be aware that
sometimes-technical data are wrong online. e.g. someone telling s3pro same as "perfect" which is untrue. perfect has
1/500 with resulting shift of exposures. forget compakt
alltogether. that was a crazy idea of some lomo "Spinners". panocam with two exposure-times only 1/60 and 1/2 and fixed f8! e.g widelux 1500 has only 3 exposure times which is a great pain when only 1/250, 1/60 and 1/8 is available. try to stop down with 1/60(1/8 needs tripod) to get more DOF. long lens 50mm with ltd. DOF is a problem alone despite focus-option.
focussing below 5m result in unsharp images. this problem is wonderfully solved with noblex (5x12)-cameras, be it
focussing- and small slit or special filters(i tested it).
Focussing on rotatary cam also wonderfully solved on roundshot 65/70/220. slit is moved to nearer distance to lens in a asymmteric circle.