Horrifying prospect for any digital M8 8.2 owner!!!

[johannielscom]

The screen in the Leica M8 and M8.2 is 2.5 inches and 230,000 pixels.


Those specs are in A LOT of other camera's too.

How exotic is the Leica-used screen? It obviously was purchased from another manufacturer and implemented.

I still want to know what other camera's share that specific model screen. I've replaced items in computers and in general it's a simple flat cable that clicks into a slot, with a small bracket to secure it perhaps.

Trained chimpanzees can do it, IMHO.

 

[louisbrown08]

Im under no illusion that a digital M isnt going to experience 'digital rot' as rockwell puts it. If i had the cash spare i would invest into the digital m system and hopefully someday i will but i think its ridiculous to think that i would have the same lifespan as sat, an m2.

 

[umcelinho]

I wonder if it's possible to replace the original M8/9 LCD screen with one the same size/specs, but a DECENT one... first time I had an M8/9 in my hands the LCD screen really felt like a very cheap camera's.

 

[pieter]

No question. So do you try to remedy this, based on a more realistic business model of selling a lot more cameras? Or what? What are the REAL alternatives?

Cheers,

R.

Well, I guess it was fantastic thinking that led some of us to unrealistically hope that Leica somehow could do better than other companies. Maybe inspired by how Leica managed to be special in the field of film.
Now it just dawned on us that thinking Leica digital is more dependable than other companies is illogical.

Realistically dependability in the digital field is better served by bigger companies who more easily manage to adapt to market response to their product and who can thus more easily adapt spare parts policies.

This only leaves the feeling that Leica could be more honest about the dependability of their digital camera's. Leave out the "life time" myth, if you cant service your camera's after so few years.

 

[anerjee]

Last-time buy on components is usually done when the supplier announces that they are starting the last production run. Usually well into the product lifecycle.

The decision to discontinue support for the LCD may not be related to any initial mis-calculation of the size of the market. It is very hard, commercially, to support electronics over an extended period of time.

I personally could NOT have planned the market demand for the M8 any better than Leica did.


Edit: Roger, if you are asking me to run Leica ? . . . I don't want the job. Too hard.

 

[froyd]

I would suggest that digital camera owners should probably all know/accept that eventually their cameras will break and be worth nothing. That is the nature of electronics vs. mechanical items. However, all the time they've been using that camera, they've not been filling it with film, perhaps if every time they shot 36 frames, they could put a fiver into a bank account, and use it to buy the next camera.

Digital cameras will not last like old mechanical ones, we all know that, and all knew it when buying, but the lack of cost of running I expect more than makes up for it.

Most of the post above knowledge that digital cameras will have shorter lifespans of many of their film precursors. However, the point is that accepting this sad fact, on would at least expect a company of Leica's reputation to set the gold standard for maintenance and after-purchase care, Leica Passports, etc.

As others have pointed out in this thread, Epson --a company out of the digital RF market-- seems to be doing slightly better in the area of customer care than storied Leica, sole purveyor of digital rangefinders.

As to the unexpected sales of the M8, the product managers in conjunction with the sales team would have undoubtedly be aware of rates of sales and forecasts. Other than potential considerations for minimum order quantities of spare parts, they should have increased their projections of replacement parts needed accordingly.

 

[Ben Z]

Last-time buy on components is usually done when the supplier announces that they are starting the last production run. Usually well into the product lifecycle.

The decision to discontinue support for the LCD may not be related to any initial mis-calculation of the size of the market. It is very hard, commercially, to support electronics over an extended period of time.

Then explain me this: if there are no remaining LCDs to repair M8's how is Leica managing to build the MM? And how will they repair M9's? The dimensions and specs for the LCD are the same.

 

[Jeff S]

One thing we know for sure : Leica sold three times the number of M8s they expected - it may be the explanation of his problem.

And the coffee stain issue likely exacerbated the problem.

Like some others, my issue lies with the continued "lifetime" marketing of the M9, M9P. We may be fools to pay the prices we do for Leica, but that's our choice; no need for Leica to help justify the prices by treating us like fools.

My eyes have always been open regarding cameras that are essentially computers. It's one reason that I'm not an early adopter, preferring to let some bugs get worked out first, then buy and hope for the best for as long as possible.

It wasn't long ago that the viability of Leica itself was in serious jeopardy. Anyone who expects "lifetime" support (be that theirs or Leica's lifetime), particularly with digital gear, must be far more optimistic (if not foolish) than I. I just happen to like their digital RF products regardless, so unless direct competition surfaces, I'll continue to make value assessments on new purchases with my eyes wide open...but not waste my eyesight on dubious marketing material.

Jeff

 

[Keith]

I can't believe that you lot are failing to see the positives here!

Every 'digital dream camera' thread that starts at RFF has the usual zealots who want their digital camera without an LCD screen. These folks will be free to suck up the supply of used M8's with dead LCD screens at their will ... buyer happy, seller happy!

Well done Leica ... catering to the minority once again!

 

[anerjee]

Precisely.

My point was that this is a commercial decision (not supporting the LCD on the M8), and not because they ran out of spare LCDs because someone under-estimated the market many years ago.

Then explain me this: if there are no remaining LCDs to repair M8's how is Leica managing to build the MM? And how will they repair M9's? The dimensions and specs for the LCD are the same.

 

[Carnacki]

Legal provisions in France

Legal provisions in France

As far as I know, legislation in France states that :

Code de la consommation
Article L111-1
Modifié par LOI n°2010-853 du 23 juillet 2010 - art. 35

I. - Tout professionnel vendeur de biens doit, avant la conclusion du contrat, mettre le consommateur en mesure de connaître les caractéristiques essentielles du bien.


II. - Le fabricant ou l'importateur de biens meubles doit informer le vendeur professionnel de la période pendant laquelle les pièces indispensables à l'utilisation des biens seront disponibles sur le marché. Cette information est obligatoirement délivrée au consommateur par le vendeur, avant la conclusion du contrat.


III. - En cas de litige portant sur l'application des I et II, il appartient au vendeur de prouver qu'il a exécuté ses obligations.

Roughly translated, it means :
I. All professional sellers must give all significant characteristics of the goods to the purchaser before the purchase.

II. The constructor or the importer of the goods of the period during which parts vital to the functioning of the goods will be available on the market. This information is mandatorily issued to the purchaser before the purchase contract is concluded.

III. In case of legal action pertaining to points I and II, the seller has to prove he has fulfilled his obligations.

This seems relatively clear : Resellers (or at least Leica Agents) should be informed by Leica of parts availability. If you purchase from them a camera and they didn't give you this information, they are responsible.

I doubt very much this national legislation contravenes European legislation, so it should be similar in most EU countries (including Germany !)

Well, that's the theory. For the while, and considering the financial effort it would require, I'm putting the long-awaited purchase of a M9P on hild until this clears a bit.

JPascal,

M6ttl 0.85, M5 Chrome; Lux 35 pre-asph, Lux 50 type 2, Cron 50 type 4, Tele-elmarit 90, Tele-Elmar 135, CV12mm, CV21mm, CV28mm1.9

 

[Keith]

I think that Leica telling their customers there is now effectively a class distinction in the parts food chain ... will not sit well with many of them!

 

[CK Dexter Haven]

Just a small comparison. A Leica MP that will last your entire life time is 5000$. A Leica M9P is around 7000$. So that means you're getting the Leica MP components, plus a FF sensor and all related electronics for just 2000$ extra. That is very cheap in Leica standards. I think a M9P should be more like 12000$ and I'm sure Leica would provide parts for the next 50 years not 5 if you pay this price

If Leica's marketing department determined they could get $12,000 for an M9P, and that the total sales figures wouldn't suffer, they'd charge that much. And, NO — they wouldn't add any more commitment to the support/life of the product. They'd take your money and grin.

 

[CK Dexter Haven]

Consider the cost of the film and processing on an M3 over the six years since the M8 was introduced. Consider what it would have cost you to have those M8 images shot on film. High quality digital cameras have a high up-front cost but the cost per frame just keeps going down the more you shoot. Not so with film... (as much as I like it).

Cost of usage has nothing to do with the price of the item. If this analogy held true, a Prius or Chevy Volt should cost twice what a Ferrari or Range Rover cost. And, the Prius/Volt would have to provide a better/more classic/more authentic ride and driving experience : )

 

[DamenS]

Try getting an iPad, iphone, ipod or other tablet fixed in 5-10 years. They will still be out there and operational, but repairs are not going to be feasible.

Not a good comparison I'm afraid. Firstly Apple will certainly be able to service iPads in 5 years time, probably 10 years too if my experience with Mac computers (which sold in much lower volumes than the iPad) are any guide. Secondly, if any of their products were deemed irreperaible within the 5 year time frame, due to a lack on Apple's part, they would generally offer a "generous trade in" on a new model. Comparing Apple's customer service, reliability and ability to repair/replace products to Leica's customer service, reliability and abiltity to (stockpile key components) repair/replace their digital products just leaves Leica looking exceptionally poor. Probably not the comparison I would have made were I wishing to advocate or excuse Leica.

The second part of where this comparison falls down is that in 10 years time, if our iPad fails, we will be able to buy a new model which is either vastly expanded in capabilities (by a massive amount after 10 years of computer chip advancement) or something closer to the capabilities of our current model but VASTLY cheaper - or some combination of the two, a lesser-priced more powerful iPad. Now, onto Leica. In 10 years time you need to replace your M8, so you look into the new M12. It is slightly expanded in capabilities (though not by nowhere near as much as the iPad is - this is still Leica after all) and is four times as expensive as the M8 was when you bought it. You can't AFFORD to replace your Leica M8 with the new Leica M digital. Oh dear. Leica digital cameras and iPads is a bad comparison, unless you want Leica to look bad.

 

[Archlich]

I remember the Leica CM. Released in 2003, discontinued in 2007, and in 2008, no longer repairable.

It's still not too late for people to realize what kind of jokes modern Leicas are.

 

[DamenS]

Does anyone really think they can get an LCD screen for a D2H/D2X (a $5000 camera when new) even today, cost effectively? Those cameras now are going for $500-$800 in great condition. It is not just Leica, but Canikon and all the others.

The difference is that you CAN get the screen from Nikon if you so choose - one of the advantages of a large company such as Nikon, Canon or Apple over a boutique manufacturer. Of course, you may suggest that the $250 charge is excessive, but your camera is worth $0 to somebody else and you don't need to pay $500-$800 for another second hand unit, which certainly makes it "cost effective" in my book.

Im under no illusion that a digital M isnt going to experience 'digital rot' as rockwell puts it. If i had the cash spare i would invest into the digital m system and hopefully someday i will but i think its ridiculous to think that i would have the same lifespan as sat, an m2.

Yes, that WOULD be ridiculous. So ridiculous in fact, that not one person in here has made that suggestion. The issue we are discussing isn't that people are angry the Leica M8 hasn't lasted or won't last as long as the Leica M2. The issue is that the Leica M8 is less than 6 years old. Less than 6 years. If you believe that is an acceptable lifespan for full support and reapairability, then fine. However, other people believe that to be too short a period of full support on a premium (priced) camera, even a digital one.

 

[jtm6]

I still have my M6 and M4-2. A digital module that replaces the back makes much more sense than this insanity we digital M owners now face. It an aftermarket module was made, I would buy that rather than a new M digital!

That is precisely why you can't buy a digital back. Contrary to marketing, consumer product technologies serve the makers, not the consumers. If anyone thinks "it makes our lives better" then there is a chance someone got in your head.

 

[I Love Film]

1) Selling a digital camera for a "lifetime" of use is not a good model for making a profit in the modern age.

2) It is a ridiculous, laughable idea that you will buy a digital camera for "life", until you are on the verge of dropping dead with a terminal disease or maybe you're 99 years old.

Let's say for the sake of argument that you're 40 years old and you buy a Leica expecting it to be useful to you when you're 65 years old. There is virtually no chance that you will be able to use the camera, except maybe getting it to turn on as a curiosity at a museum.

1) The memory cards and related computer readers will be totally obsolete and unavailable.

2) The DNG and JPG formats will be long gone.

3) The batteries will no longer be made, although there may be a hobbyist market that rebuilds old batteries for a high price.

4) The ENTIRE PARADIGM of storing still images on a memory device, downloading to a computer and manipulating the images will be gone, replaced by something we cannot imagine today. Doing so will seem laughable to the people living in the future.

5) Computers, needed to view and manipulate digital files, will no longer exist as we know them today.

6) Speculating a little, with the advent of "cloud computing", tightly controlled "apps", etc, etc, the whole ability to do as you please online and with your computing device will be gone. Governments will have become more totalitarian and may outlaw owning independent computing devices that are not "closed", or even outlaw creation of many types of images. (the world may not even exist, after the next thermonuclear war). There will likely be "big brother" like censorship of images and thoughts, with only politically correct and "approved" concepts and images allowed to be stored. All this is not in the realm of science fiction, they are starting down this road already. People alive now in 2012 don't have the ability to think independently and freely as people 100 years ago, and most don't even realize it, it seems "normal" to them, so deeply are they programmed. Any deviation from approved thoughts brings howls of vitriolic protests.

"Lifetime cameras" are a ludicrous fantasy.

 

[Keith]

1) Selling a digital camera for a "lifetime" of use is not a good model for making a profit in the modern age.

2) It is a ridiculous, laughable idea that you will buy a digital camera for "life", until you are on the verge of dropping dead with a terminal disease or maybe you're 99 years old.

Let's say for the sake of argument that you're 40 years old and you buy a Leica expecting it to be useful to you when you're 65 years old. There is virtually no chance that you will be able to use the camera, except maybe getting it to turn on as a curiosity at a museum.

1) The memory cards and related computer readers will be totally obsolete and unavailable.

2) The DNG and JPG formats will be long gone.

3) The batteries will no longer be made, although there may be a hobbyist market that rebuilds old batteries for a high price.

4) The ENTIRE PARADIGM of storing still images on a memory device, downloading to a computer and manipulating the images will be gone, replaced by something we cannot imagine today. Doing so will seem laughable to the people living in the future.

5) Computers, needed to view and manipulate digital files, will no longer exist as we know them today.

6) Speculating a little, with the advent of "cloud computing", tightly controlled "apps", etc, etc, the whole ability to do as you please online and with your computing device will be gone. Governments will have become more totalitarian and may outlaw owning independent computing devices that are not "closed", or even outlaw creation of many types of images. (the world may not even exist, after the next thermonuclear war). There will likely be "big brother" like censorship of images and thoughts, with only politically correct and "approved" concepts and images allowed to be stored. All this is not in the realm of science fiction, they are starting down this road already. People alive now in 2012 don't have the ability to think independently and freely as people 100 years ago, and most don't even realize it, it seems "normal" to them, so deeply are they programmed. Any deviation from approved thoughts brings howls of vitriolic protests.

"Lifetime cameras" are a ludicrous fantasy.

Alternately those of us left alive in the future may be living in caves waiting for the nuclear cloud to disipate ... making drawings on the cave walls with ochre or charcoal to amuse ourselves while we wait for RFF to come back on line!