How advanced will the M8 be?

What never fails to surprise me is that people will go out and buy a new car every three years because the old one is "obsolete"and take a 50 % value loss at the same time, yet never complain that their favorite brand is losing its marbles because the 1963 model is worth more now than new. A 50% loss on a 5000 $ camera is better than a 50% loss on a 50000$ car last time I took out my pocket calculator. Btw my 1963 Triumph is as much or more fun to drive than my 2005 Jag, but do I have to hammer Jaguar for building an up to date car? Let's be rational about the M8. Assuming it will be great, taking superb quality pictures now, why should it suddenly be a worthless grotty outdated thing in five years time? I don't see myself selling it anytime soon, and if one doesn't want to sell, the resale value is essentally nil. But that goes for my M3 as well.
 
jaapv said:
Let's be rational about the M8. Assuming it will be great, taking superb quality pictures now, why should it suddenly be a worthless grotty outdated thing in five years time?
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Not that it will be suddenly worthless, but I suspect it will lose value faster then the mechanical wonders of the past. That's because digital relies on highly integrated electronics thats "hard-wired" into the body.

Wheras the electronics and silver-based sensor of the past were replaced easily, the digital electronics and silicon-based sensor will not. The digital sensor and complex electronics is more suspect to failure and degradation with time than mechanics. Hotpixels will show up; color rendition and tonality will degrade; electronics will fail completely all of a sudden and the cost for reapairing will get you two new bodies.

So I bet 15 years from now a M8 (at least as a picture-taking-machine) will have lost much more value than a M? of 15 years ago has lost today, or maybe even 15 years from now.

Lets face it: Times have changed. The value of a digital camera is in the short-lifed elecronics, not the long-lifed mechanics.

The only thing that will last forever are thy lenses. :cool:

But what do I know ... any (working) Leica will be out of my reach for quite some time anyways ... :(
 
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I also don't expect M8 to "hold value" to the same extent as film Ms do, but that's not the point. It is silly to buy cameras as investment, real estate is far better and less risky at that.

I would just be happy to see a digital rangefinder body, reliable enough for professional use. If Leica makes it right, I suspect a surprising number of journalists will adopt this system. This could win Leica back some popularity outside of collectors and "non-mainstream" photographers.
 
The issue with the electronics is not that it is fundamentally unreliable but that if a failure does occur, the level of integration is such that you have to replace far more than the (probable) single failing component. Laptops are the same. If one fails and it's not something which is reaily detachable like the keyboard, disk or display, the cost of repairing it may well be uneconomic because the whole system board has to be replaced.

Same issue with cars. As the level of electronics used increases, there's the fear that in 10 years time, they will be consigned to the scrap heap because of electronic failiure rather than rust or mechanical failure of old.

Leica will stockpile replacement electronics for the M8 towards the end of its life so that replacements will be available but estimating how many will be required is tough. Having parts remanufactured at some point in the future is just not an option.

I know of one UK hi-fi manufacturer who has just introduced a new high-end CD player and they have bought two replacement CD drives for every CD player they are making to be sure they can provide service to match the £13k price of the CD player.
 
Storage media and the camera interface to extract the images are also concerns. Will there be computers with USBII interfaces in 10 years? What will you do with your media reader if it requires an antiquated USB port? Or will there be legacy media readers with current generation interfaces? If not, you might want to save your old computer/operating system and media readers.
 
dogless said:
Storage media and the camera interface to extract the images are also concerns. Will there be computers with USBII interfaces in 10 years? What will you do with your media reader if it requires an antiquated USB port? Or will there be legacy media readers with current generation interfaces? If not, you might want to save your old computer/operating system and media readers.
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Who knows, that is true, but on the other hand, ye olde com-port is still with us after 25 years.
 
Leica will be losing the war with the M8.... they think the M8 would digitize the Leica crowd, its a dream!
Canon and Nikon have the market well in hand...Leica will sell a few thousand M8s...and then they will fold!
Just like the M7,
Kiu
 
NIKON KIU said:
Leica will be losing the war with the M8.... they think the M8 would digitize the Leica crowd, its a dream!
Kiu
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No .... the Leica crowd is too conservative ........ it will not be the prime target group.
They want the professionals howling heavy Canon & Nikon cameras around to buy and shoot a Leica in certain situations. Add one to the toolbox --- they often already have the glass.
They will also target the techno and gadget freaks ... who want every new camera around, especially the more expensive ones: shooting all the brick walls around the house to find out if the Leica lenses are realy as sharp as they say.
Last but not least there are the rich kids in town: pop&movie stars, oil sheaks, and every snob you know.... who only go for the red dot.
Wait and see what happens if Paris Hilton shows up with a custom made M8: pink with diamonds;)

In the mean time: the Leica crowd will be on the waiting list, is dreaming of a full frame M9 before they jump..... or sticks with film.
 
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J. Borger said:
..... or sticks with film.
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That's what I am talking about...The Leica crowd is well established, and they are not digitizable...most are Throw-backs like we!
Leica will remain as a name on Japenese products, Panasonic cameras come with Leica lenses....up to 8 MP for under $2000....who's gonna pay $5k???!!!
Last nail in the coffin???!!!
Kiu
 
NIKON KIU said:
That's what I am talking about...The Leica crowd is well established, and they are not digitizable...most are Throw-backs like we!
Leica will remain as a name on Japenese products, Panasonic cameras come with Leica lenses....up to 8 MP for under $2000....who's gonna pay $5k???!!!
Last nail in the coffin???!!!
Kiu
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Leica is clever enough to realise ... that's why the Leica crowd is not their prime market with the M8.
Not everybody drives a Japanese car because it is might be the most economic choice .....!
Why pay 400$ for D&G jeans if you can buy a nice trouser at Wall Markt for 29$ .... both probably made in China?

I am convinced the M8 wil be a huge succes .. because it will produce excellent pictures .. up to it's reputation ..... There are enough people out there tired of the same old Canon Cmos look! And more important ---- tired to cary a 3 kilo kit to shoot a nice picture ..... or who simply want to buy a new gadget to show off with.


Han
 
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No doubt it will be great seller, but leica as brand will loose alot.
Just imagine this, after 3 years of M8 on sale, rasale value of M8 will be? still $5000? oh ok okey lets say $3000, but it is imposible, because at that time canon or nikon will have 2398434 giga pixel camera at $200, nobody will buy your 10megapixel noisy M8 :)
 
Why does anybody want to buy a M8 only to sell it again?:confused: :confused:
I will buy it to keep it and make photographs with it. Resale value is pretty unimportant then.
 
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Because it is part of owning leica, you buy leica, you pay alot, you get amazing quality, and you know you can sell it anytime :)
 
On the other hand, SCSI is like 20 years old and was common 10-15 years ago. It was what Apple put in the Mac for example. Since a couple of years it is not really possible to get it at all for Mac. My scanner could not be attached to my now 3 year old Mac due to this, I had to get a new scanner.

I have a legacy HP-IL (Hp interface loop, similar to USB, but some 25 years old) interface on an ISA card. Good luck on finding a (new) computer with the ISA bus today.

My 15 year old Amiga is a pain to boot these days due to degrading floppies and lack of built-in network support.

Painful problems, but they can be worked around with some efforts and cost, at least for some more years (I hope).

/Håkan

jaapv said:
Who knows, that is true, but on the other hand, ye olde com-port is still with us after 25 years.
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Nachkebia said:
Because it is part of owning leica, you buy leica, you pay alot, you get amazing quality, and you know you can sell it anytime :)
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That is always the part that gives me trouble; and when I do, I usually lose a lot of money anyway, so it won't be a new experience.:eek:
 
What bothers me most with digital is the insane cost involved.

I (stupidly?) have invested in a digital darkroom. I fear the day when I need to start upgrading it, I am sure I do not want (or even can) spend that money to do that just a few years after.

I took a look at the cost of upgrading my darkroom equipment instead and even though it was some serious money, it looks really cheap compared to the digital darkroom. Problem is that I do not currently have the space for a real darkroom, but some day perhaps?

Given that outlook, I do not want to go for an expensive digital camera anymore, I rather stick with film as it works in both environments. After the next upgrade of my digital darkroom, I will know if it is feasible for me to continue on that route. I hope I can keep using it, but I am not sure.

/Håkan
 
jaapv said:
Why does anybody want to buy a M8 only to sell it again?:confused: :confused:
I will buy it to keep it and make photographs with it. Resale value is pretty unimportant then.
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Because a lot of Leica owners are more collectors than photographers.

I had difficult times to sell a 1Ds i bought for Euro 7000 3 years ago for Euro 1500. Lost about half the money on every Canon L lens i sold (because of Canon price drops and money back actions) and because there are enough private people out there selling for low prices.
Yes .. i will also loose big money selling a Leica'.
And not only on a Leica Digital .............. it's because of internet .... in fact everybody buying a new lens is stupid because he can buy for half the money LNIB if he takes the time to look around.
But having the option to buy gear LNIB for half the resale prices also means that if you want to sell your new acquired lens ..... you will also loose half the money. Yes that's the downpart of transparant international markets.

Nobody wants my brand new 75 Summilux for Euro 2000 ... despite the fact it is listed new for Euro 3000.

Try to sell a brand new 50 summicron to a dealer .... 350 Euro maximum.
Try to sell a 50 Summilux pre-asph to a dealer....... 500 maximum.

You can lift the price by selling to private persons.... the Summicron might bring you Euro 700 .. where it is listed Euro 1300 new!

So Leica resale values are not al that great to begin with unless you talk "collectibles" or the latest designs.

Moral of the story .. buy 2nd hand gear lnib if possible and buy to shoot pictures!
 
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money on every Canon L lens i sold (because of Canon price drops and money back actions) and because there are enough private people out there selling for low prices.
Yes .. i will also loose big money selling a Leica'.
And not only on a Leica Digital .............. it's because of internet .... in fact everybody buying a new lens is stupid because he can buy for half the money LNIB if he takes the time to look around.
But having the option to buy gear LNIB for half the resale prices also means that if you want to sell your new acquired lens ..... you will also loose half the money. Yes that's the downpart of transparant international markets.

Nobody wants my brand new 75 Summilux for Euro 2000 ... despite the fact it is listed new for Euro 3000.

Try to sell a brand new 50 summicron to a dealer .... 350 Euro maximum.
Try to sell a 50 Summilux pre-asph to a dealer....... 500 maximum.

You can lift the price by selling to private persons.... the Summicron might bring you Euro 700 .. where it is listed Euro 1300 new!

So Leica resale values are not al that great to begin with unless you talk "collectibles" or the latest designs.

Moral of the story .. buy 2nd hand gear lnib if possible and buy to shoot pictures!
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Exactly my experience; the end result is that I usually do not sell stuff that I bought new...
Doubtless that is what will happen to the M8. It may turn into a second body at some point.
Somehow these complaints seem always to be aimed at the M8. I never read anything about the writeoff on Bentley cars, Miele washingmachines, Boeing 747's, Spaceshuttles etc...;)
 
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