How Great a Lens do we Need for Camera-Scanning?

[skahde]

Unfortunately I have no autofocus macro lenses so cannot test myself. Where do others land on this?

I focus-peak on every shot with a manual lens. But refocussing kicked me off more often than not because I got it right on the first try but confused lateron.

 

[sojournerphoto]

I focus-peak on every shot with a manual lens. But refocussing kicked me off more often than not because I got it right on the first try but confused lateron.

I’ve tried manual, auto and focus once at the start approaches. Focus once works until is doesn’t, so now I tend to is af each frame and may check with magnification. In reality, the S1r af is reliable for this purpose so I could really avoid a step.

 

[Godfrey]

At such magnification and without doing any calculations I would eyeball that a Nikkor 2.8/55 mm or any other 35mm-Macro lens would fill the sensor just fine and try to adapt that. Just to put another option on the table.

I have and have been using both Micro-Nikkor 55mm f/3.5 and Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm f/2.8 (and Macro-Elmar-R 100mm f/4) to capture on the Hasselblad CFVII 50c sensor, and both work. But both have their issues with rectilinear correction and light fall-off ... The question is whether the Planar 80mm f/2.8 T* fitted with extension tubes will do better. Since I have all these lenses to play with, I might as well investigate. 😉

Preliminary trials yesterday, using the 907x/CFVII 50c and V to X series adapter tube, showed that fitting two 32mm extension tubes and racking the 80mm to its close focus point nets very close to the 1.2:1 magnification I'd calculated to maximize long-axis sensor coverage with 35mm format. And it's not too unwieldy to use with my copy stand. Also interesting is that using one 32mm extension tube with the 80mm puts the magnification right into the ballpark of 1:1.9 which is near ideal to capture Instax SQ prints (I have four different cameras that can now make Instax SQ prints...) on the CFVII 50c 33x33 format setting.

So maybe if I have time this afternoon to put the full setup together, I'll shoot some Instax SQ prints and 35mm film with this back and lens, see how it compares to Leica M10-M/-R captures with the Leica lenses. 🙂

G

 

[photo_henrik]

(New here)

Just about to start film scanning with a Canon 5d mark IV, a Sigma 70 mm f/2.8 EX DG Macro and an easy35 screwed on to the lens.
At first testing I experienced what I now think is some kind of lens sag. It looked like the negative seem wasn't in the centre of the frame, the top looked cropped. The suggestion was to get an other lens, like a Sigma 105 or Canon 100 with internal focus and everything will be fine but for a small cost of more money.

But besides the sag issue that I think I can overcome by using 10mm longer tubes and just accept that the negative is not covering the frame fully. It was also mentioned that due to the drop of sharpness in the corners, it way not be the worst idea to crop some out anyway.

I had a quick scan of the used lens market and there is a Canon 100/2.8 is usm for a good price (a good price always makes me a little nervous).
After reading this thread I get the feeling you like the Sigma 70/2.8 EX, at one point it almost look like "can't get or afford the ART, use the EX instead".

So question is: stay with the Sigma 70/2.8 EX and live with the sag, or go Canon 100/2.8?

 

[peterm1]

My experience suggests that when scanning slides or negatives the important thing is that with which ever lens you use you should stop down to f5.6 or f8. Any such lens will be at its best at these stops, and should there be any concerns about focus accuracy, this should be taken care of by the increased depth of field which results (although at the short scanning ranges involved these will still be very narrow). As most people will use some kind of backlighting for this scanning and the camera / lens and the target slides / negatives will in most set ups be locked in alignment, camera movement should not be a great concern. I imagine that much the same might be said for scanning prints but here many set ups can be more problematic - keeping lighting even and preventing light flares across the print from marring results and making sure the camera and the target print have completely parallel planes comes to mind as potential problems as typically the camera is mounted separately from the print (e.g. on a tripod). None of these issues really have to do with the lens used as such and there are any number of potential lenses that might be used. My suspicion is that this will depend more upon whether the lens you wish to use will mount on your camera system and whether you can find extension tubes that might be needed to get some lenses close enough to produce the magnification required. I noted in another post that I scanned several hundred slides from 30 years back a couple of years ago and I used a Pentax Bellows outfit in M42 mount (found in a camera store) and accompanying slide holder together with a Super Takumar 55mm f1.8 lens. This had the advantage that this bellows outfit was specifically calibrated to use this exact lens and as I already owned it, it made sense to use that outfit. Care was needed in initial focusing during set up of the outfit each time I used it, and it made sense to make a couple of test shots up front. The biggest issue I found was not in the lens used but in preparing slides for scanning. After 30 years of storage (often poor storage) and little or no care, pretty much every slide had a collection of hair, dust and fluff to deal with. A simple blower brush helped but was not enough necessitating a lot of time in post fixing the problem. Of course I only reserved this for images I wanted to keep once scanned.

The one refinement I plan to make next time I undertake this task is to shoot my outfit tethered to my computer via USB. This will afford the chance to make better observations of the scanning results as it proceeds, and I can make immediate decisions about keeping or rejecting resulting scans or rescanning specific slides if needed. I have researched this a few months back and bought the necessary bits and bobs to achieve it (some specific USB cables that will connect to the camera and the PC's ports are the main ones) but have not yet got around to it in part because if I wish to import directly into Lightroom from Sony equipment some extra (free) software is also required as it allows the two to talk to each other. (This is not needed with other camera makes). I just have not got around to testing this out.

 

[peterm1]

Further to my previous post about the potential for "shooting tethered" when scanning slides or negatives. I mentioned I was planning to connect my camera to my PC for this purpose when next I undertake some scanning or in some cases, rescanning of slides. The benefit , of course, of tethering the camera to a PC for this is that the PC then takes the place of the cameras LCD monitor and hence you can get a much clearer view of the target / results before deciding whether to delete and rescan. If you scan in the normal manner, as camera monitors are not really sufficiently hi definition for this purpose you will typically need to scan a whole batch and then at the end of a scanning session remove the SD card, transfer it to the PC, review them in bulk and then make your decisions about keeping or rejecting. This makes it harder to rescan as having rejected a file you will need to sort through your pile of scanned slides, find the ones that need rescanning - and this is a pain. Some options for shooting tethered also allow you to control (some) camera makes and models through the PC - which means you can change camera settings such as exposure through the PC and fire the shutter through the PC.)

There is another option too, which I have also explored a few months ago. This is to use a cheap video capture card to connect the camera's HDMI port to a smart phone or tablet and to use one of these as the monitor in lieu of the camera's own monitor. Again, these give much more hi definition, detailed and accurate view than does the camera's own LCD monitor so you can see the impending results and make decisions about changes to the set up / exposure etc. BEFORE you shoot each slide as well as after. I think it is also possible to connect this kind of HDMI output from a camera to your PC at least in some cases and use that as the monitor as an alternative to shooting tethered as I discussed in my prior post. But I am not sure what apps if any are available for PCs to use this input. I have not inquired...............................

It used to be that video capture cards were professional pieces of equipment costing hundreds of dollars. The best ones still are expensive. But, it is no longer necessary to go the "pro route". Now, very cheap non pro versions are available on eBay etc for under $20. I bought one and can confirm that mine works perfectly well for this kind of application. Their main deficiency seems to be that there can be a slight lag in plaing the image on the tablet. But as you are shooting a still subject this is not a consideration in this type of use.

You will also need to buy a HDMI cable which has the correct port / connector for your camera at one end and for the video card at the other end (just like USB cables and ports HDMI connectors come in a few different "flavours" which have changed over the years - from full sized HDMI, to mini to micro - it depends on your camera model and how old it is). But the necessary cables / or adapters for these different HDMI ports are also readily available on eBay etc. The Video Capture Card converts the HDMI signals from the camera to USB signals and the other side of the video capture card contains the USB port that then allows these converted signals to be sent to a USB port on your phone or tablet (phones and tablets lack HDMI ports and this conversion is the main role of the Capture Card). It is also necessary to download and install an app (usually free to download - there are several) which will allow the tablet or phone to receive the inputs from your camera and display them on screen. I think some of these apps then allow your tablet / phone to control your camera from the app and from memory some allow you to decide whether to store the resulting images locally on your camera or on the phone/tablet or both. I have bought / downloaded all of the necessary stuff, for my camera, tested it and found it works fine on my equipment but am yet to get back to the task of seriously trying them in a "production" environment. BTW a lot of videographers who use cameras to make video blogs now use this kind of set up for their blogging efforts (see video below). The process for making videos is much the same as for taking pictures and the set-up process is identical. Only the software app may differ.

If you need relevant HDMI and USB cables I found that the best are "Small Rig" branded ones simply because they are small because they are specifically designed and scaled for use with cameras / phones in this manner. But they do cost a bit more.

These following videos will show how it all fits together and is set up. As the presenter in the first one mentions your tablet / phone may need to support the USB OTG protocol (most do these days).

 

[oldhaven]

Peterm1,
Have you done any film scanning yet? Reading this thread intrigued me enough that I bought a Pentax Bellows II and slide holder, and it is on its way here. I intend to use my Pentax K-5 IIS adapted to M42, and I have e couple of possibly suitable lenses,: Mamiya Sekor 55/1.8 and Mamiya Macro Sekor 60/2.8 1:1 capable. What really interests me is the possibility of using my iPad, iPhone or PC as a monitor. Did you find a suitable app for oS or PC? My camera does not allow control of functions, so it only has to transmit live view. The capture card and cables are on order too.
Aside from using the rig for camera film scanning I can see it being useful for regular macro photography where looking through the viewfinder or even seeing the camera monitor can be difficult. I also have an infrared remote for the shutter so no need to set up a delayed shutter to prevent camera shake when tripping it, important when dealing with fleeting moments with small moving subjects.
Thanks again for your helpful post above.
Ron

 

[peterm1]

Peterm1,
Have you done any film scanning yet? Reading this thread intrigued me enough that I bought a Pentax Bellows II and slide holder, and it is on its way here. I intend to use my Pentax K-5 IIS adapted to M42, and I have e couple of possibly suitable lenses,: Mamiya Sekor 55/1.8 and Mamiya Macro Sekor 60/2.8 1:1 capable. What really interests me is the possibility of using my iPad, iPhone or PC as a monitor. Did you find a suitable app for oS or PC? My camera does not allow control of functions, so it only has to transmit live view. The capture card and cables are on order too.
Aside from using the rig for camera film scanning I can see it being useful for regular macro photography where looking through the viewfinder or even seeing the camera monitor can be difficult. I also have an infrared remote for the shutter so no need to set up a delayed shutter to prevent camera shake when tripping it, important when dealing with fleeting moments with small moving subjects.
Thanks again for your helpful post above.
Ron

Oldhaven I am glad you found my post useful. Most of my slide scanning was already done with my Pentax bellows (with its accessory slide and neg. holder) in M42 mount. I noticed that the Pentax bellows I had, has settings for the Asahi SMC Takumar 55mm f1.8 lens and the accompanying instructions booklet (BTW it is worthwhile finding this online if you do not have it in hard copy - it is available for free d/l) helped with the set up. It was a bit of a fiddle-faddle to work out how much extension was needed on the bellows / slide holder and this was not helped by the fact that the camera I used was a Sony NEX which of course is a crop sensor camera, so avoiding cropping edges of the slides was a bit of a hassle (while still getting the rest of the set up correct). But I eventually got the hang of it. I imagine your Mamiya Sekor 55/1.8 would be comparable in optical quality to the Asahi SMC Takumar I used and having the same focal length helps given the bellows has settings for this. I also have an Asahi 50mm f4 macro Takumar but went with the 55mm lens figuring it was (a) more convenient given the instructions for setting up the bellows is based on this and (b) it is in any event a very competent lens and given I would be stopped down to f8 or beyond should be expected to perform well in this setting. I also figured Pentax would not recommend the use of a mediocre lens for such an application and hence could rely on it. I had a couple of copies of this lens in various models and ages but made sure to choose the SMC (last version) due to its improved coatings.

Most of the scans were done just with the bellows/lens/camera as I said, and mostly worked well before trying shooting tethered but I went ahead as per my previous post and bought all of the electronic fittings needed anyway. My initial plan was to shoot tethered, directly importing into Lightroom. But Sony is a bit odd with older versions of Lightroom and requires an intermediate bit of software (Sony Imaging Edge Software - free to download) to help my Sony camera talk to these older versions of Lightroom directly (newer LR versions now support native tethering with later Sony cameras so it's now a little simpler - I expect your Pentax camera should export directly to LR too). Again, this was a bit of messing about. But it's not too hard to deal with. So, I tried this experimentally but not as a production run.

In addition, I also bought the video capture card needed to connect the HDMI visual output of the camera to my mobile phone / tablet via the latter's USB so I could use this as a monitor. This is an alternative to shooting tethered directly to my PC and in reality is a pretty good one as it met my most important need - i.e. the ability to check critical focus when setting up the lens/ bellows / camera as focus peaking is not perfect and eyeballing the focus on a larger screen than the camera's CCD is best. It was also great for checking exposure of the shot after it's taken. I tried this out too and for the moment plan to stick with it when I get back to doing more scanning. After all, taking out the SD card and putting it into my computer to download to LR after each session is not a big deal. (I still have lots of film negatives to scan even though most of my slide scans are now done - though some require rescanning as I am not happy with some.)
Happy scanning. I did find this to be a very convenient way to scan slides as once all is set up each shot takes a matter of mere seconds to swap out the slide just scanned with a new one and shoot it. Unlike most dedicated digital scanners which are slow.

 

[peterm1]

An example scan from an old trip to the Pacific. Some turned out well though even then mostly needed a good bit of PP work (dust, scratches etc as well as exposure tweaking, color balance, sharpening.) This would have to be one of the best in terms of final outcome. I found that a lot of slides may have looked sharpish when viewed on a slide viewer but when scanned to a large digital file (16 megapixel camera) were pretty compromised and often difficult or impossible to rectify. Though the latest AI sharpening software can help I am sure.)

 

[oldhaven]

Thank you for the nice write up and I am l pleased that you seem to have had positive results. I will have everything here next week and I hope to go through and pick out the best of our last quarter of the 20th century negatives and slides. It should be fun to both set this up and also to experiment with different lenses and settings. I did download the manual from the Butkus site, and was sure to donate a few dollars for his great resource. I think getting the film and slides dust free might be the biggest drag.
I will check back in when things are underway. You are a big help.

Ron

 

[peterm1]

Thank you for the nice write up and I am l pleased that you seem to have had positive results. I will have everything here next week and I hope to go through and pick out the best of our last quarter of the 20th century negatives and slides. It should be fun to both set this up and also to experiment with different lenses and settings. I did download the manual from the Butkus site, and was sure to donate a few dollars for his great resource. I think getting the film and slides dust free might be the biggest drag.
I will check back in when things are underway. You are a big help.

Ron

Glad I could help. If you have further questions be sure to ask. I am sure you will have fun. I did - it's nice to have all of those old memories back where they can be made useful once more. You are not wrong about getting slides dust free. I did try using an air blower and a fine dedicated brush for pre treatment but I have to say it was pretty much to no avail. This is perhaps the biggest downfall of this method compared to those dedicated digital scanners that have built in software to recognize and deal with dust. But they are expensive to buy. I wonder if there are an plugins for Lightroom or for Corel Paint Shop Pro (which I also use) that will help with this. I must look into it.

I just recalled I did try some AI image sharpening software. I do not recall which this one is but it was a free test (with an obvious watermark overlay on it). But it did a pretty creditable job of sharpening up an image which was OK after scanning and some work in Lightroom but was still nowhere near as good as this version. However this image had to be downsized substantially to post here as the file size after sharpening grew to about 50 megs. I suppose this is a consideration but these days hard disk storage cost is quite cheap. Buying into this kind of software is still a possibility if it can consistently improve scans tot his degree and is not too expensive.

 

[Mark240590]

I’ve been more than happy with my results from the micro Nikkor 55/3.5 at the time it was said that it could resolve images better than film even could. That’s good enough for me.

 

[Godfrey]

One thing to remember: No photograph ever suffered by using a lens that offered more resolution, rectilinear correction, and tonality... 😉
As good as you can get is the right answer to the original question.

G

 

[skahde]

An example scan from an old trip to the Pacific. Some turned out well though even then mostly needed a good bit of PP work (dust, scratches etc as well as exposure tweaking, color balance, sharpening.) This would have to be one of the best in terms of final outcome. I found that a lot of slides may have looked sharpish when viewed on a slide viewer but when scanned to a large digital file (16 megapixel camera) were pretty compromised and often difficult or impossible to rectify. Though the latest AI sharpening software can help I am sure.)

One problem may be that 16 MPix just doesn't cut it. When I started film-scanning I had Nikon D800 with its large 36 MPix-sensor and the results were outstanding. Then I physically downsized my digital equipment to a 24 MPix Fuji X-T3 which was much lighter on my shoulder but the scans done with its 24 MPix-sensor also are much more of a paperweight than before. While the large sensor would resolve the grain in a Kodachrome-slide the smaller sensor with just a bit less resolution would sometimes struggle to resolve even the grain in a 400 ASA b&w negative. Why is the grain relevant? In my experience it is part of the visual texture when printing as well as digitizing that contributes to the impression of max sharpness in the final imagine. I feel somewhere between those two cameras/sensors a border is crossed where it gets difficult to really squeeze evereything out of a 35 mm exposure with a camera and macro-lens.

 

[SFone]

I could use advice.

I haven't tried camera scanning yet. I'm trying to scan 4x5 negatives. I have a great light source. I don't have a feel for what focal length lens makes sense, further if it's better to go with something like a Apo-Rodagon-D 1X 1:4 f=75mm or a classic macro in a shorter fl.

I intend on using my Sony A7R5 as the camera rather than a dedicated body.

Any advice is welcome. I'm a scanning beginner.

 

[sojournerphoto]

I could use advice.

I haven't tried camera scanning yet. I'm trying to scan 4x5 negatives. I have a great light source. I don't have a feel for what focal length lens makes sense, further if it's better to go with something like a Apo-Rodagon-D 1X 1:4 f=75mm or a classic macro in a shorter fl.

I intend on using my Sony A7R5 as the camera rather than a dedicated body.

Any advice is welcome. I'm a scanning beginner.

Practically, for 4x5, you probably want something shorter than the ‘standard’ 100ish macro lens. Simply because of working distance. So 50-70mm?

However, flat field at working distance is important and I’d prioritise that over focal length. Also, if I wanted to ‘scan’ 35mm, I’d be back at the 100 macro to get some working distance back.

Sorry, I can’t comment on the apo-rodagon but there is/was a detailed article somewhere on the internet. FWIW, I use a sigma art macro 105/2.8 iirc.

 

[Godfrey]

I use mostly B&W film and so my usual scanning camera is a Leica M10 Monochrom fitted with a Leica R Adapter M and either a Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm f/2.8 or a Macro-Elmar-R 100mm f/4 (on the Focusing Bellows-R). If I'm shooting color neg or positives, I switch to the Hasselblad 907x/CFVII 50c and Zeiss Makro-Planar 120mm f/4 (with usually an extension tube) due to the CFVII 50c sensor's greater dynamic range for color work. This covers most common negative sizes from APS-C to 6x7cm.

For Minox 8x11 subminiature work, I use the Focusing Bellows-R but fit the Leica Summicron-R 50mm f/2 with the M10-M ... In testing, it simply produces better results then either of the Leica dedicated macro lenses at magnifications greater than 1.5:1.

I haven't had need to scan 4x5 in eons so I don't know whether I'd use one of these setups with that or switch to my flatbed scanner with negative copy lid. That does an excellent job with big transparencies and negs.

G

 

[sojournerphoto]

I use mostly B&W film and so my usual scanning camera is a Leica M10 Monochrom fitted with a Leica R Adapter M and either a Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm f/2.8 or a Macro-Elmar-R 100mm f/4 (on the Focusing Bellows-R). If I'm shooting color neg or positives, I switch to the Hasselblad 907x/CFVII 50c and Zeiss Makro-Planar 120mm f/4 (with usually an extension tube) due to the CFVII 50c sensor's greater dynamic range for color work. This covers most common negative sizes from APS-C to 6x7cm.

For Minox 8x11 subminiature work, I use the Focusing Bellows-R but fit the Leica Summicron-R 50mm f/2 with the M10-M ... In testing, it simply produces better results then either of the Leica dedicated macro lenses at magnifications greater than 1.5:1.

I haven't had need to scan 4x5 in eons so I don't know whether I'd use one of these setups with that or switch to my flatbed scanner with negative copy lid. That does an excellent job with big transparencies and negs.

G

Likewise with not needing to scan 4x5 for ages but I’d also tend to use the Epson V800

 

[mcfinski]

Hello back. How mount enlarger lenses? Every which way. I use a copy stand (Polaroid MP-4, rock solid), and I prefer to have a tripod mount on the lens or on an adapter to make things more stable. I try not to use the tripod thread on the camera body.

Tricky with enlarging lens or any lens without a focusing helical to get the right extension. Also, it's handy to be able to use the mirror alignment trick, but to do so, you want to adjust focus.

Bellows is handy. A thin L39 adapter on front of bellows should allow 1:1 focus with the 50 f/4 El Nikkor, but you won't be able to focus to a lower magnification and therefore won't do for camera-scan with an APS body. Bellows is more flexible with an 80mm lens.

There are a range of focusing extension tubes. On eBay, easy to find M42 focusing tubes and to add adapters to the front and rear. If you want to be able to adjust focus, this will be the easier way.

Here's a complete setup for a 75mm lens (75 f/4 APO Rodagon-D 1x). The Nikon PN-11 has a tripod mount, I used that to attach the stack to the copy stand.

Your 50 f/4 El Nikkor should be OK for camera scan at 1x. Not one of my top lenses, but it's good.

But, my net of all this: it will be easier for you to get a macro lens that focuses without adapters. For a Canon body, I can highly recommend the 70 f/2.8 Sigma Macro ART or one of the earlier Sigma EX DG Macros.



View attachment 4815414

You mentioned that the older ex DG sigmas work well on canon bodies, is that true for the 50, 70, and 105mm variants? I am trying to decide on what would be best for my DIY copy stand setup using a canon eos R